Who is familiar with ZL1/CTSV? IAT2 and fuel system issues

[GrannySShifting]

Stock fuel system

What power have you seen on stock injectors/pump and at what boost, air/fuel A6 or M6 car?

Have one only making a little over 500 rwhp (A6) car at 11.6:1 a/f. 120+% duty cycle, 10.5 psi, fuel pressure data shows falling to 50 psi

Also Im seeing IAT2s as high as 180s

If your at whatever optimal timing is say (probably 20-23 degrees on something making mid 500s since they make up to 25 stock) how much do you really need to keep it happy at 140 IAT2, 180 IAT2?

[DrkPhx]

Is this a V or Z? Those are really high IAT2 temps. The owner should consider an aftermarket hear exchanger and/or an intercooler reservoir. COT is probably kicking in causing the AFR to go rich (10.4) and increase the injector duty cycle. It also needs at least injectors and a boost a pump to help keep the fuel pressure up at WOT. I was around 540 rwhp on stock injectors and seeing high duty cycles but not at low rpms like this car.

[Redline MS]

Thats a pretty high IAT for only 10.5 lbs. You may want to make sure you don't have an air pocket in the heat exchanger cooling system. Also the spark angle that is optimal is an arbitrary value and is based on what doesn't know at whatever temp. For some reason the the internet thinks that temps over 140 means danger but again its relative to the setup. Your setup as noted seems to be making a good amount of heat for that pressure. The TVS blower is pretty efficient. An F3 blower on 22 lbs we could see 180-220 and thats normal...

[GrannySShifting]

Its a ZL1. If you made 540 with stock injectors and pump, no reason why this shouldnt (unless you had a M6 and this is auto) COT I turned off of course

Thats a pretty high IAT for only 10.5 lbs. You may want to make sure you don't have an air pocket in the heat exchanger cooling system. Also the spark angle that is optimal is an arbitrary value and is based on what doesn't know at whatever temp. For some reason the the internet thinks that temps over 140 means danger but again its relative to the setup. Your setup as noted seems to be making a good amount of heat for that pressure. The TVS blower is pretty efficient. An F3 blower on 22 lbs we could see 180-220 and thats normal...

Well that is of course, this is a pump gas mild ZL1 setup, with tons of data point I figured theres alot of data points of what timing it will tolerate with good IAT2s vs what made it happy at 140+. I cant see more than 2-3 degrees needing to be taken out but the stock stuff has 8-10 degrees coming out. Its not a C16 or E85 setup so it sure doesnt LIKE hot air, thing is a turd when it gets warm

Best way to bleed these systems?? I set the intercooler pump to run key on engine off in HPT but its ran long enough id think the thing would have burped itself by now

[GrannySShifting]

I know a exchanger would help, but theres no reason it should be this bad at this point. Dont want him to buy a bunch of cooling system mods, upper pullies, porting blower housing and 102mm TB and crap, when he could sell this mess in a little bit, and put the same money in a procharger setup and make hundreds more HP with none of the mess...

[DrkPhx]

Best way to bleed these systems?? I set the intercooler pump to run key on engine off in HPT but its ran long enough id think the thing would have burped itself by now

That usually does it, however try it with the intercooler cap open (facing upwards) to make sure the pump is pushing coolant to the SC. My friend had a similar issue with his V and this helped to remove the air pocket. Check to make sure there are no bends in the hose going to the SC by the pump itself. I've seen a slight bend/crimp cause some cavitation. You can hear it too with the key on/engine off.

Mine is a M6, but I did see high duty cycles in the upper rpms and a drop in fuel pressure at WOT hence the bap. The V's have a better fuel pump setup imo.

[GrannySShifting]

I had cap off forever, kept filling and filling and filling, pump doesnt run just with key on, only would run for a few seconds then stop. I think it was airlocked. After filling and filling and it spitting up over and over it seems to run quiet now (was noisy like it was cavitating) and IATs seem to be better. I was seeing 180s cruising. ambient now

[GHuggins]

On correct setups I've seen the 1.9 blowers put down right around 1000 to the rear wheels. The zl1 in my signature made 761 to the rear wheels with stock fuel pump and the 1.9 blower. All depends on the setup and of course the tune. I can see you got your temperature problem fixed, but there shouldn't be any reason to replace the rest.

[GrannySShifting]

stock pump. No boost pump just stock? Uhhhh

And no 1.9L is going to make 1000 hp on any dyno Ive used?

[07GTS]

if u have the w2a intercooler check to see if the pump pumps coolant into the w2a cooler or if it sucks from it, reason being mine sucked from it to circulate and i could never get the air out so if u change it so it sucks from resovoir and pumps into the w2a cooler then any air will be pushed out the bleeder valve so much easier

[GHuggins]

stock pump. No boost pump just stock? Uhhhh

And no 1.9L is going to make 1000 hp on any dyno Ive used?

Told you. Depends on engine setup and tune. I've personally been proving people wrong with stuff like this for a while. I wasn't even the one who built and tuned the zl1 making over 1000 to the rear wheels with the 1.9 blower, but I did see it so I know it's possible. Our zl1 with stock pump and no booster with only a cam internal mod made 761. We've also had our dyno compared to another to find out ours is a little stingy with the numbers, so who knows what it actual l y was making. Lots of secrets in the lsa that if not built or modified correctly can and will really kill power.

[GrannySShifting]

There are no secrets in physics as far as Im aware. Tell me what fuel, FP pressure boost and injectors/duty cycle you had and you can tell how much power was made. Not sure how a real 760 hp could be made with stone stock pump unless your not making much boost, and running ID2000 and just letting the pressure fall

So what does 760 hp run in the quarter?

[GrannySShifting]

Thats actually what i had thought about doing. ID2000s turn the pressure down to 40 and put a boost pump on it should be able to feed a good bit of fuel

[GHuggins]

There are no secrets in physics as far as Im aware. Tell me what fuel, FP pressure boost and injectors/duty cycle you had and you can tell how much power was made. Not sure how a real 760 hp could be made with stone stock pump unless your not making much boost, and running ID2000 and just letting the pressure fall

So what does 760 hp run in the quarter?

80 lb at 3 bar injectors maxed and fuel pressure dropping to high 40's/low 50's. There are lots of secrets in the 1.9 blower and lsa engine that I'm not disclosing.... Lots of people jump way ahead without thinking things through and loose more than they gain with the lsa's. You can loose 30hp alone just by getting rid of cats... I will however say it was making this on about 14.5 to 15 psi max boost if that helps you? I can get 590rwhp out of a ZL1 with kooks headers, my own version of high flow cats - another secret here with the design flaws of the factory exhaust, K&N CAI, 160 Tstat and tune. Most secrets are in the tunes, but lots in the motors. Haven't had the car in the quarter as it's a manual and owner refuses to do a drag setup. Can't do anything spinning the tires through third I can however tell you it placed first in it's weight class in the half mile for the 4000lb manual trans class... We were beating supposedly heavily built cars from well known performance shops left and right and everyone was wondering how we were doing this with the otherwise stock blower and only a cam internal engine mod. One guy probably had forty to fifty grand in his ZL1 and was losing to us big time. He was I-rate to say the least. Just wait for the build I'm doing now to it Hoping for big numbers this go around.

Would also suggest doing an after market entire fuel system upgrade opposed to the boost a pump, but that's up to you.

Not disclosing any more... So please don't bother asking all though most info is in the signature... You just have to figure out why it works the best the way it does We had to do a lot of experimenting to figure out most of the secrets on the lsa and why this and that work best together with them.

[AutoWiz]

the 1.9L superchargers are tempting right now because the can be had on ebay for under $700. they are turn ins from the dealership. but you get that blower and the solid isolater from lingenfelter, and go crazy and buy a nicer lid and/or heat exchanger, you'll still be under 2k into a pd blower. they won't fit in my c5, so i gotta spend all that extra for a Maggie tvs2300. but only because it wont fit.

[GrannySShifting]

So you gain 150 hp over stock with headers and a CAI with tune? or it makes 590 on a very high reading dyno, or its on E85, or drugs? LOL

What your saying is that the LSA engine defies physics, and it likes backpressure unlike any other supercharged engine because removing cats loses hp (in 15 years of owning/operating my dyno Ive never seen a 400+ hp V8 engine WANT cats on it), never heard of that? And I dont understand how you can make much more power with the same fuel system that is running out for everyone else

[GHuggins]

So you gain 150 hp over stock with headers and a CAI with tune? or it makes 590 on a very high reading dyno, or its on E85, or drugs? LOL

What your saying is that the LSA engine defies physics, and it likes backpressure unlike any other supercharged engine because removing cats loses hp (in 15 years of owning/operating my dyno Ive never seen a 400+ hp V8 engine WANT cats on it), never heard of that? And I dont understand how you can make much more power with the same fuel system that is running out for everyone else

150hp? What are these cars putting down stock for you? 440hp to the tires? I gain roughly 60 to 75hp with the forementioned setup. They typically put down right around 515ish to 525ish stock... Those are best numbers of course. Obviously if you keep heat soaking and doing 4, 5 or more pulls and really get those IAT's up there they can and usually will drop down to around 470 to 490's to the rear wheels. I know you like to start arguments and could argue with a wall if you felt the need just from seeing your post on here. I'm not getting into it... AND if you were reading my post I clearly stated we've already had our dyno compared to another at around a 1000 ft elevation. Completely different style and model at that. Ours showed lower numbers than their's. Perhaps they're both reading high? Who knows... AND for your second paragraph... Never stated it made more "with" cats, just more with our own version of cat. Study the factory exhaust... Who knows you might just be able to figure it out. I'm not holding my breath though - If you've ever played with overseas cars and some of "their" test add on's for the exhaust, you might be able to understand it Key with the fuel systems as you've already guessed are better flowing injectors... NOT the pump. Yes a pump will do the same. BUT injectors are much cheaper and all around better planned route for the owners... Clearly already stated I don't like BAP's. They kill the stock pumps right quick and in a hurry. Just a bandaide for a bigger problem. Put some ID 1000's or 1300's on there and it'll fix your pressure problem. THERE are key's in the tunes to change to make more power. I've told some on here what to mess with. 15 years huh? Hmmmm?

[GrannySShifting]

I think this car made 460s. Ive seen alot of number fudgers and BSers so I take dyno numbers with a grain of salt. Everyone says their dyno reads low, but they always read LOWER on mine LOL. So Im asking for real data, not just dyno numbers, so it means something, not trying to argue

And you did say loose 30 hp by getting rid of cats, which seems silly... but even then were talking cars with longtubes, your not reusing OEM cats, so not sure what kind of comparison your making. Explain please

Im using a dynojet now days, and it too seems to read on the low end, if this auto car made 460s stock. It was a hot day, as its summer here. Theres seems to be a lot of variation in these cars, on a cold day where the IATs stay in check and low (since they put timing in them with colder IATS) some stock cars see 24-25 degrees it seems

[GHuggins]

I think this car made 460s. Ive seen alot of number fudgers and BSers so I take dyno numbers with a grain of salt. Everyone says their dyno reads low, but they always read LOWER on mine LOL. So Im asking for real data, not just dyno numbers, so it means something, not trying to argue

And you did say loose 30 hp by getting rid of cats, which seems silly... but even then were talking cars with longtubes, your not reusing OEM cats, so not sure what kind of comparison your making. Explain please

Im using a dynojet now days, and it too seems to read on the low end, if this auto car made 460s stock. It was a hot day, as its summer here. Theres seems to be a lot of variation in these cars, on a cold day where the IATs stay in check and low (since they put timing in them with colder IATS) some stock cars see 24-25 degrees it seems

OK, I'm going to give away a "secret"... Gut the high flow cats. Relocate O2's to just in front of cat body. Change O2 proportional airflow by multiplying by .9. Multiply integrator delay by 1.2 to 1.25 for O2 relocation. Now observe the factory exhaust. What do you see? Two 90 degree turns just past the cats right? Now what do the now installed "expansion chambers" allow the exhaust to do in the factory exhaust. This is why "straight pipes" don't and won't work with the factory ZL1 exhaust system... Straight pipes cause a 5% loss in airflow through the motor... I've done extensive testing for proof and yes on the car in my signature it cost us just over 30hp - to be exact it was 35.something hp... Shouldn't even be posting this, but oh well. Thought I would help you out. Now with the timing There are "torque" tables that you can change combined with some spark pulling tables that you can modify to "SAFELY keep" that kind of timing... I'm not in no way shape or form giving this one away. Some of the tuners on here use these just like I do... Best mod in the world for transmission shifting to without having to modify the trans tables at all hardly. You have to use them on the newer gen 5's. Hint hint Secrets with the Superchargers... People jump the gun thinking certain mods will give them more power. Your setup is one of these. Saw that when I read the boost info. Do not ever go to a 9.1 pulley or larger without changing something on the SC. Again, instant 15 to 20 hp loss or more depending on pulley used... AND you should instantly need upgraded injectors with the 9.1... If not, your really cooking that air to not need them. I promise you, if you fix the SC issue, figure out what to change in the tune, and install better injectors, even on your dyno you should be seeing mid 500's to the wheels.

Then what kind of dynojet are you running? Single in ground drum or AWD setup? I can tell you if it's the AWD, you need to be using load control to get accurate numbers. Big in ground drums should be fairly accurate without added loads as they already simulate the weight of the vehicle. The lighter drums like what's on the AWD models need load control to simulate vehicle weight for correct tuning and numbers.

OH and I'm not just spitting out BS... Thought the fact that the car in question placed 1st for it's weight class gave that away when it was going up against supposedly much more built and powerful cars. I know all too well about BS'ed dyno numbers. I loose a lot of business to a somewhat local shop with just that, BSed numbers... You would think owner's of the cars would catch on when their cars put down more to the tires than they supposedly had on the flywheel from the factory? Then our cars kick their butts in the real world. Let's just say locals are starting to catch on Especially when your having to go inbehind said shop and fix problem after problem... Never the less I don't play that game and was rather ill when accused of such

[GrannySShifting]

Using a in ground DJet as of now, I had a shop fire and lost just about everything a while ago, my dyno is in storage waiting for the $$$ to fix it. I miss that thing dearly :/

On the cats thing, yes an expansion chamber slowing down gas velocity before a turn will help... but I wouldnt put speed bumps before a chicane in the racetrack, Id rather just straighten the damn track out! haha. Im surprised that effect would pick up 30hp though. What would fixing the exhaust tract all together do then is what I would be after!

I dont know the internals of these blowers well, because Id rather have a Procharger on it than the damn Eaton and make 800 hp on accident, they dont get much attention from me. Im sure when you turn them harder there are some major innefficiencies (snouts need porting, bypass valves leaking internally?). I just did the lower pulley at the same time the cam went in (since the balancer was off and Id rather have an ATI balancer on anything that sees the harmonics of a blower) to keep the gauge boost level approx the same as it would drop with cam, and I know customer would call me back asking where his boost went when it makes 6 psi even though its fast LOL. This turd only has 1 3/4 shitty headers on it too btw, who does that? Its is making 550 to the tires right now, it is out of inj and pump pressure falling fast LOL

As to the last statement, welcome to my world ive been fixing another shops crap work/parts/tunes for years, going on 10 now. Working behind someone often loses me money instead of making me money because they are so jacked up. They had the exact same Mustang dyno I had and on more than one occasion had cars make 100 less than what customers were told - off the same damn equipment LOL