LE5 Turbo build questions

[steelmesh]

My e67 VE tables are rpm vs. throttle position, no kpa.

Are you sure patooyee? My table scales look exactly like this (found this off google images though):

[Robotech]

and the last one...

Factory Sensor: 12615136 2 Bar Map Sensor
3 Pin Sensor (Map Only)
Tuning Data - Linear: 187.492 and Off-Set: 12.508




Keep in mind there are many more sensors that can be used in a map sensor location. as long as you have the calibration data or the linear plot from the manufacture you will be ok.
Shoot i've used oil pressure and high pressure fuel sensors for reading boost on rotaries and drag ecotecs. although they were not desirable to run they did work for the time they were used.

I pulled the data from an 08 sky 2.4 which i believe is wrong now that i reviewed it.

This is the data for sensor 12580698 which has been issued by Delphi, the OEM Manufacture:
http://www.powerandsignal.com/docs/Products/09350899.pdf

technically the data sheet for that sensor leaves a linear of 187.492 and an offset of 12.508
and since the range is 187.492 kpa that would be a 27.1934 psi range which comes out to ~ 2 bar with a calculated value of 1.8498 bar at 4.88 V

if you want to know how to find the data yourself its simple algebra... its standard line plotting 101

the plot of a line is y=mx+b m= slope which in this case is (delta pressure/delta voltage) b= y intercept but for this case it is the offset value.
plots for this sensor are (0.195v, 20kpa) and (4.88v, 200kpa)
(200kpa - 20kpa)/(4.88v - 0.195v)= Slope of ~38.4205 since we have two data plots we plug one set into the standard slope formula to find the y intercept (value b). 20kpa = (38.4205)*(0.195kpa) + b --->which comes out to b= 12.508
Value "b" is the "offset value" for the sensor. that is when the sensor reads 0v (which is the y-axis intercept)
to find the linear value you multiply the slope by 5, which gives you the max range of the sensor. 38.4205*5= ~192.1025 (thats your linear plot)
The max read kpa would be found by simply plugging in 5v into the linear equation and solve for the unknown kpa value. y=(38.4205)*(5)+12.508 y=204.6105 (which is 29.676 psi - 1 atm for vacuum read range leaves ~14.976 psi of readable boost)
because there is an offset if you subtract it from the max kpa value then you can verify the range you found before is correct. 204.6105-12.508= 192.1025 this verifies the offset value is correct because it kicked out the range value found in the steps before.

*note the only reason my stated linear of 187.492 is different than my example is because i rounded the data in the example off. DO NOT ROUND YOUR DATA WHEN YOU CALCULATE SENSOR LINEAR DATA!!
normally i have an excel file setup to do the formulas for me to ease the situation.

Learning so much here. Now then, with this information, this is the 2-bar that will work for an LE5 2.4 boosted application, yes?

Now I just need to figure out what to do with the vent line coming off the K04...

[patooyee]

Are you sure patooyee?

No, not any more. You are using the VE generator tool which I have yet to get to work for me. I haven't spent a lot of time trying to figure it out though. I think it has something to do with the fact that I am on 2.25. I need to go back to 2.24 anyway. Just haven't had time to do it. I am interested to hear what others have to say to your original question as well though. I think you can also use the stock MAP if you mount it on the cold air side. I'm not sure what the overall implications of doing so are. I'm still learning about tuning.

Learning so much here. Now then, with this information, this is the 2-bar that will work for an LE5 2.4 boosted application, yes?

2 bar only gets you about 14.7psi of boost. 2.5 bar is about 22 psi boost. 3 bar is up to 29 psi boost. I never plan to go that high but I ended up getting the 3-bar map just in case I wanted to go a little higher than 22 on occasion and also because, for some reason, the 3-bar sensor is half the price of the 2.5 bar. (Uses the same connector.)

I spent all of today rebuilding my 4t45e after welding the differential inside. Everything was going smooth until I installed the sprocket support assembly. It didn't want to seat all the way. I spent 6 hours tearing everything down and putting it back together what seemed like 15 times, none of which that bitch would go on. I was about to give up and decided to give it one last try and for some reason it literally just fell into place on its own. Then I tore a valve body gasket which ended the whole operation. >:-[

[cobaltssoverbooster]

patooyee --- you have to make a custom pid in order to get the virtual ve to work properly on some of these ecu's

[patooyee]

patooyee --- you have to make a custom pid in order to get the virtual ve to work properly on some of these ecu's

Is there a thread somewhere describing what I need to do?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

patooyee- you need a pid for afr error which is made by using commanded afr and comparing it to actual afr. iir the calculation is (commanded-actual/actual)x100 id double check that though.
this would be your plot pid.
then you would make a histogram that matches the virtual ve plot. so for the 07 files in the repository you would log map kpa vs rpm and use the axis labels in the virtual table.
when you enter the virtual table through hpt it automatically make the table for you based off of the factory data.
make a scan that records the data against your new histogram and then when your done copy the histogram and paste the changes into the virtual ve table in hpt. once your done making your changes you click the calculate coefficients button and the software uploads the correct data into your ecu file.
Save As and Flash away. repeat as necessary.


these guys are using the external software for ve equation...hpt has it included in the current beta models. its under the EDIT tab.

[patooyee]

these guys are using the external software for ve equation...hpt has it included in the current beta models. its under the EDIT tab.

Thanks for the info. This was the little bit I was missing. I couldn't get the OEM data to even move into the VE program. When I would use the copy and paste function it would just flash red and continue asking for the same table over and over again. Apparently I don't need the external version of the program at all. So here is my OEM "virtual VE." KPA ends at 105. So now I'm even more curios what to do with a 3-bar sensor?



I'll also eventually need rpm to go higher as well.

[patooyee]

So now I'm even more curios what to do with a 3-bar sensor?

I'll also eventually need rpm to go higher as well.

Shazaam! Just figured that out on my own! If you click on each axis label you can enter whatever values you want for the column and row headers. There are even pre-set defaults for 1, 2, and 3-bar maps as well as rpm ranges. (Although when I change rpm VCM crashes and submits an error report. I guess it is still in beta though.)

Here's my re-labelled virtual VE:



Now I'm really starting to love 2.25! I also like how the icons are bigger and easier to reach with a touch screen. I had bought a Win10 2-in-1 just recently specifically for this purpose and then not one day later 2.25 was released. Its like they specifically had touch screens in mind.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

you dont need more than 7k anyways.

[Robotech]

No, not any more. You are using the VE generator tool which I have yet to get to work for me. I haven't spent a lot of time trying to figure it out though. I think it has something to do with the fact that I am on 2.25. I need to go back to 2.24 anyway. Just haven't had time to do it. I am interested to hear what others have to say to your original question as well though. I think you can also use the stock MAP if you mount it on the cold air side. I'm not sure what the overall implications of doing so are. I'm still learning about tuning.



2 bar only gets you about 14.7psi of boost. 2.5 bar is about 22 psi boost. 3 bar is up to 29 psi boost. I never plan to go that high but I ended up getting the 3-bar map just in case I wanted to go a little higher than 22 on occasion and also because, for some reason, the 3-bar sensor is half the price of the 2.5 bar. (Uses the same connector.)

I spent all of today rebuilding my 4t45e after welding the differential inside. Everything was going smooth until I installed the sprocket support assembly. It didn't want to seat all the way. I spent 6 hours tearing everything down and putting it back together what seemed like 15 times, none of which that bitch would go on. I was about to give up and decided to give it one last try and for some reason it literally just fell into place on its own. Then I tore a valve body gasket which ended the whole operation. >:-[

I would love to go 3 bar but right now won't be running more than 12 psi until I can reduce compression. Have no idea how much boost on what turbo I'll need in the future to get the power level I have in mind but for the 260-300 whp 12 should be more than enough.

[steelmesh]

No, not any more. You are using the VE generator tool which I have yet to get to work for me. I haven't spent a lot of time trying to figure it out though. I think it has something to do with the fact that I am on 2.25. I need to go back to 2.24 anyway. Just haven't had time to do it. I am interested to hear what others have to say to your original question as well though. I think you can also use the stock MAP if you mount it on the cold air side. I'm not sure what the overall implications of doing so are. I'm still learning about tuning.
. >:-[

I am using EQ VE 3.5 and HP Tuners 2.24

[steelmesh]

Shazaam! Just figured that out on my own! If you click on each axis label you can enter whatever values you want for the column and row headers. There are even pre-set defaults for 1, 2, and 3-bar maps as well as rpm ranges. (Although when I change rpm VCM crashes and submits an error report. I guess it is still in beta though.)

Here's my re-labelled virtual VE:



Now I'm really starting to love 2.25! I also like how the icons are bigger and easier to reach with a touch screen. I had bought a Win10 2-in-1 just recently specifically for this purpose and then not one day later 2.25 was released. Its like they specifically had touch screens in mind.

Whoa, so can you 'Send Equations to HPTuner' successfully with the extended scale?

If you setup the new scales in the Scanner, will it record values over 105 kpa?

My assumption is that you couldn't send the E67 data the extends beyond 105 kpa. Another assumption is people "unlock" extended kpa scales in other ECU types, I could be totally incorrect here would be nice to get corrected!

[patooyee]

I'm not exactly sure how the new VE tables work. They work in zones that are modified in several different tables, not one singular table. But when I modify values in the virtual VE table and calculate the equations the coefficient tables as well as all associated tables to change like I would expect them to. My rig isn't running right now so I can't scan anything. Why don't you request 2.25 and play with it yourself?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

It is a coefficient base times a zone coefficient modifier(however many there are). When you run a higher boost it will plot the factory high load zone and just extend it's range to a higher zone. This is where zone boundary adjustment t comes into play. You only get x amount of zones so you need to come up with a way to evenly spread the data out over the zones.

The maf has been this way in Subaru for years.

[patooyee]

You only get x amount of zones

In this case x = 29.

And yes, you can re-map the zones however you want.

There is a thread somewhere on this forum explaining it in exquisitely painful detail.

[patooyee]

Here it is:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...-E38-E67-ECM-s

[steelmesh]

Here it is:

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...-E38-E67-ECM-s

I think I'll stick to MAF for now I have VE tuned, but I shut it down after 2200 rpm.

[patooyee]

Well since you brought it up I'll go ahead and ask what the potential disadvantages of that would be? Obviously the engine will run like crap or even not at all if you have a MAF failure. Anything else? As a rookie tuner I have always read that MAF sensors are inefficient at detecting accurate air mass during transient conditions. Even the factory has the MAF disabled above a certain rpm, doesn't it?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Maf alone is bad but maf is almost always applied directly to a base VE as a modifying circuit. In a maf run case base airflow is referenced through map it and rpm then modified accordingly by the maf values. It still uses VE, just because you use the maf doesn't mean it has turned VE off that's not how it works

[patooyee]

Maf alone is bad but maf is almost always applied directly to a base VE as a modifying circuit. In a maf run case base airflow is referenced through map it and rpm then modified accordingly by the maf values. It still uses VE, just because you use the maf doesn't mean it has turned VE off that's not how it works

I understand that that is how is is supposed to work ...

I think I'll stick to MAF for now I have VE tuned, but I shut it down after 2200 rpm.

... but this post implies that he is using MAF to avoid having to tune the VE coefficients and / or avoid having to use the virtual VE tool. Or am I misunderstanding?