Found another awesome E85 study...

[Matt M]

I've not examined one in person, I was just taking a stab at the possible issue with the set-up. lol

And I have no problem with that at all. Of course people are going to be concerned about that type of thing. When we started that project, we tried a few different configurations, gathered data, and asked a lot of people what they wanted in a kit. In the end, we ended up with a kit that worked as well as we had hoped, costs less than we expected, and installs much easier than we expected. As far as the fuel puddling concerns, these issues are non-existant. If you tried to run a setup like this at low airflow you might run into that situation. However, it is only used under high airflow and therefore it simply does not happen. Most people don't realize how much airflow a few hundred cfm is. When you are forcing it through a space that is less than 2.5" across, airspeed is extreme. I don't have the exact numbers on me right now, but I remember that we calculated airflows of well over 100mph as it enters the intake manifold. And remember that this is extremely dense, pressurized air. Imagine spraying ethanol into a small airstream that is travelling over 100mph and then try to imagine that fuel just falling down and making a puddle. It simply can not happen.

[Bill@HPTuners]

Guys please take the personal stuff to PM or off of our message boards as it does not belong here.

[silverbullet08]

Thanks for the info GMtech! i love reading these types of things.

[06cobaltss/sc]

Just to chime in I can add a few things about e30 vs e85 on the lsj. I have been running e85 on a TVS'd cobalt for a long time now and have also been using e30 and mixes of e85 and premium trying to get roughly 50/50.

Anyway. Simply put e85 I can run more timing down low at lower rpms because of the extremely high octane. However I sacrifice A LOT of gas mileage to do so. For every day daily driving and insane power, I can run e30 and get the EXACT same gas mileage as premium gas but yet run A LOT more timing then 91/93 premium gas.

Few things to note, with e30 I can get over 300 miles to a tank of gas easy. My last tank was 332 to be exact with mixed driving mainly city, some highway country 55 stuff but a lot of city, some 65 highway, a mix.

Anyway, with e85 people get way way less, even less if there foot is in it. So the trade off of timing vs gas mileage for a daily driver, IMO is worth it.

With e85 you can generally run more timing overall and or more in the low end of things, but when you have to sacrifice a lot of mpg's for it, especially with gas prices today, it's not worth it.

The price difference of e85 and e30 in my area is only 20 cents a gallon, but it does add up because on e85 you are filling up a lot more often.

Another thing to note is that the people running e30 don't need to change there tunes as often because e30 is always e30. E85 as we know can change percentages throughout the months effecting the tunes.

I have been running on e30 for well over 2 years now both on 60lbers and 80lbers etc. You would be shocked what a 60lb lsj m62 can do on e30 =D.

All of my recent testing including the log I did today, has been on a tvs'd e30 80lber. I rarely beat on my car, but she can handle just about anything timing wise that I toss at it top end. If I want a tone of low end timing, aka spinning my tires at high speeds, then I run e85.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

your mileage is easily understood where full e85 has a slightly less powerfull burn than pump gas so there for mixing the two 50/50 wich is actualy e47 not e30, then you will get more power at a colder temp because the pump gas is giving a little extra excitement to the blended e47. in tern you get colder temp making awesome power but since it has more of a pump gas quality you get the gas mileage because full e85 needs more fuel to make the same torque less pump gas would.

[06cobaltss/sc]

Oh I figured everyone would understand it, I just wanted to share my findings. A lot of people for awhile thought it was simply just premium they should run on the LSJ. Then e85 came around and they thought it was just premium or e85. Without dealing with blending 50/50 the easiest every day thing to run in my opinion that has both power and mileage is e30.

I don't know if there are pumps that have other blends besides e30 and e85, but out here there are only those 2 options. Also, I ran e30 all winter and had no issues with anything. No cold start bugs, no hesitations nothing. Granted on e85 a few years back I didn't have to much trouble either.

All in all though, ethanol is a god send!

[cobaltssoverbooster]

no e47 blend is the shit ....i am broke and i believe gmtech tested it first with great results to share with everyone. nicks been busy but he also had alot to do with e fuels as usual. the list is quite long now to be ohnest....i appreciate your contribution as im still trying to catch up to those guys who first figured it out lol still not there yet

[Iam Broke]

E30 allows almost as much timing as E47 in the LNF. I started at 20% and increased up to 70% before I ran into high boost fueling issues.

I believe 06balt lives where they have blender pumps and can dispense E30 straight. E47 is the simplest for those of us that have to mix in the tank as it is 1:1 E85 with (E10)91 or 93. E60 is 2:1.

[06cobaltss/sc]

Ya I have a pump out here that has e30 or e85. The timing difference isn't much on the top end so I just stick with e30 since I can still pull great gas mileage. It's also nice because I can increase my cruising timing excessively high which also helps with gas mileage / part throttle acceleration for daily driving etc.

If you are mixing ethanol and gasoline, why wouldn't you just mix e85 and regular 89 gas to save some money instead of paying for premium. With the price difference of over a dollar out here it makes so much more sense to pay 3.20 for e30 vs 4.20 for premium.

[Iam Broke]

Good point, I ran 87 when I was 60% E, 89 is midgrade here.

[gmtech16450yz]

I tried running E85 and 87 oct regular gas and wasn't happy with the timing results. It did effect the total ign timing I could run and to me wasn't worth the slight price difference. You're only talking about a buck or so savings on a tankful since it's only half gasoline.

The E30 at the pump thing is awesome! I wish we had that here. The best thing that could happen in this country for everyone is if they would bump the 10% ethanol they're putting in gas to 30%. If the manufacturers knew that the worst gas available to anyone in the country would be 87 octane with 30% ethanol, then they could completely optimize all these motors and tunes for WAY better efficiency and power. Imagine the 2.0 turbo in the new Buicks having 12:1 or 13:1 compression and way more aggressive cam and ignition timing? It would be getting better mileage, more power AND lower emissions.

Obviously the big issue is we need to find a better source of ethanol to be able to pull something like that off. They need to figure out how to make it from lawn clippings so every time you or your gardener mows your lawn, that grass gets put in a bin, picked up and sent to a local processing station and turned into ethanol! I would have to imagine that all the lawn clippings produced in this entire country would be enough to produce a helluva lot of energy. Can you tell I'm not a scientist though? lol. I have no idea if there's enough cellulose or sugars or whatever it is they use to make ethanol in grass clippings! They make it out of Switchgrass though, so maybe my idea isn't totally whacked.

However it would work, E30 at the pump would be awesome, for everyone. All these studies I've found (there's 3 or 4 more if anyone wants to read more) are coming up with the same conclusions, huge gains can be made if a motor is designed to run on somewhere around an E30 to E40 blend. Every motor built, even up to the current 2012's and 2013's, are detuned to run on the crappiest gas available, 87 octane regular. If I was an engineer designing a motor or tune, that would piss me off. Basically having your hands tied and not allowing you to design a better motor. Smog or emission issues aren't even a factor since the more ethanol you can burn, the lower emissions go. I think it will happen, it's just gonna take time.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

just make moon shine
190 moonshine = ~e97 if done correctly
ive run it in secondary injection kits and had good gains in hondas 8P

2015 news flash: major oil companies now mass producing moonshine for public use in automobiles. the new substitute is equivalent to e97 grade fuel and burns much cooler and cleaner than the fuels of old times.

bahahaha

[eklipskid69]

Great tech article. I read somewhere that the reason E15-30 isnt available at most pumps is because of the older fuel systems that would need all new lines to handle it and keep them from breaking down. Is there any truth to that?

l8r,
PD

[383_Stroker]

Most of the fears of corrosion caused by ethanol, are based confusing it with a different alcohol, Methanol.

[gmtech16450yz]

Found another really good one. Pretty cool almost all of these studies were done using an LNF.

dspace.mit.edu/bitstream/handle/1721.1/69496/775670245.pdf?...

(Link downloads the pdf automatically)

[2000Firehawk]

Another great study.

The calculated ONEFF starts around 97 for gasoline (same as the RON of the gasoline used) and increases quickly to about 113 for E20 ,and 115 for E50.
There seems to be no considerable improvement in antiknock fuel performance beyond about 40% ethanol content,
unless it is used in a DI engine that can utilize the charge cooling effect.

It was seen that using ethanol blends with a volume concentration more than 40- 50%,
provides no benefit unless it is used in a DI engine.

It looks like I found a reason to move up to E60, for a little better, charge cooling effect.
I'm really happy with E47.5, but I'll stop at E60, any higher, is really not worth, the time/effort.

[gmtech16450yz]

Yeah I don't remember seeing as much discussion in that first study about the differences between Port Injection and Direct Injection as far as Ethanol levels. This study mentioned it several times, saying with PI there isn't much benefit to going over 40% or so, but on DI they said the higher the Ethanol content, the more power. They do still say the benefit tapers off over 40% or so.

I still firmly believe on our LNF's, considering the fueling issues, E47 is the best mix.

[Iam Broke]

Another great study.

The calculated ONEFF starts around 97 for gasoline (same as the RON of the gasoline used) and increases quickly to about 113 for E20 ,and 115 for E50.
There seems to be no considerable improvement in antiknock fuel performance beyond about 40% ethanol content,
unless it is used in a DI engine that can utilize the charge cooling effect.

It was seen that using ethanol blends with a volume concentration more than 40- 50%,
provides no benefit unless it is used in a DI engine.

It looks like I found a reason to move up to E60, for a little better, charge cooling effect.
I'm really happy with E47.5, but I'll stop at E60, any higher, is really not worth, the time/effort.

Especially since most run out of fuel when fully bolted around 70% E unless you baby the midrange, then what's the point?

I can't honestly say I saw any gains above 50% E on my LNF.
The LS1 is going to E85 on the larger injectors & cam but that's so I don't have to blend it anymore.

[2000Firehawk]

This study didn't show much, if any more power, over a 40-50% blend.
But they showed page after page, that higher Ethanol contant, being "better
than sliced bread", with a DI engine, in regards to the charge cooling effect.

I'm just going up to E60 for the charge cooling effect, that might help out,
at the track, on those, "dog-days" at the track, when the temps are sky high.