Wideband Accuracy: Facts & Issues

[fr0stb1t3]

OK, so what is "CL" and what is "OL" ?

Closed loop and open loop.

[Rockrz]

Great, thanx...I guess I need to compile a list of things like this

[99LS6SS]

I heard you couldn't permanently wire in the AFX? Something about leaving it hooked up too long will ruin the sensor or something?? Any feed back on this?

[S2H]

whoever told you that doesnt know what they are talking about...
no issues with a permanent install of the AFX..
just need to recalibrate the sensor once in a while(which may need to be removed from the exhaust to do the calibration or the vehicle needs to have been sitting for longer than 24 hours to guarantee clean air in the exhaust pipes...)
and replace the sensor just like any other o2 sensor when they finaly do wear out over time

[99LS6SS]

Good deal!! Thanks for clearing it up. So the ECM widebands are good? How much do they usually run?

[boomer]

I heard you couldn't permanently wire in the AFX? Something about leaving it hooked up too long will ruin the sensor or something?? Any feed back on this?

The only way that would happen is if you directly hook the controller up to a power source that is "Hot" all the time, like the battery. you just need to make sure its "key hot".

[S2H]

The only way that would happen is if you directly hook the controller up to a power source that is "Hot" all the time, like the battery. you just need to make sure its "key hot".

I think he understands that it needs to be an ignition hot just like the stock o2's run on ...thats kind of a given

[eficalibrator]

I heard you couldn't permanently wire in the AFX? Something about leaving it hooked up too long will ruin the sensor or something?? Any feed back on this?

As mentioned before, it's fine as long as you use switched power and have the sensor installed at the proper angle.

So the ECM widebands are good? How much do they usually run?

Yes, ECM is the standard of the industry. The price is "expensive" by enthusiast standards, but reasonable as far as lab grade equipment is concerned. They typically run somewhere between $1500-$3500 a piece, depending on which unit you're looking at. Considering how much shop owners spend on other equipment (dyno, software, hand tools, demo vehicles), it's really not that much to know that you're collecting good data.

[Bow Tie 67]

Some quick questions, on a permanent install is it ok to shorten the jumper harness with good solder connections or best to just coil it up. When I add this sensor to the passenger side header, should I worry about its orientation in relation to the narrowband sensor?

[TXZ0603]

I have the AEM UEGO WB. Should I replace the sensor with a diferent one and which one would work with that? Thanks

[Rockrz]

So, what happens if you don't use wideband O2 sensors?

Do you just put up with a bad air/fuel mixture, or is the
stock setup still going to provide somewhat decent bad air/fuel mixture

I understand that stock wouldn't be as good as wideband, but I thought
I'd ask this question to get an idea of stock versus wideband.

[RWTD]

Rockrz, what are you asking? If it's okay to datalog factory narrowband sensors in an attempt to dial in fueling?

Short answer: ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Narrowbands are only good for switching at stoich (whatever thay may be, depending on the fuel you're using), and can NOT give any proper data for anything other than such.

[Rockrz]

What I was wanting to know is, what options are there
for people NOT running wide band to try and get the best
air/fual mixture?

Do ya guess? Or, do you just hope the OE settings
are decent?

Just curious about the differences between running
wideband O2 sensors, and running regular O2 sensors

If I knew what the differences were between the
two, I could better decide if it would be worth it
or not to get into the wideband scene...

[RWTD]

I basically explained to you the differences. Narrowbands only read properly at stoich. Widebands can read basically any AFR you throw at it (there are low and high limitations, obviously). You can also Google or Bing search the info about widebands and narrowbands.

So, no, you can't logically tune your car without a wideband.

[KLUG'S SS]

Hell I dont even feel that tuning even part throttle areas with fuel trims is worth a crap IMO, got the wideband just tune everything, more accurate and no messing around with resetting fuel trims between changes and all that bs.

[Cantalope Kid]

Did the NO Wideband thing for over 1 1/2 years. Total waste of time and almost threw away my Hp Tuners Software due to the frustation resulting from lack of tuning ability. Thank god I caught on deal on my used Fast Wideband. Please re-consider buying one.

[Rockrz]

Thank god I caught on deal on my used Fast Wideband. Please re-consider buying one.

What does this run, about?

To be honest, I was just planning on advancing my timing a bit, controlling
my electric fans, and maybe tweaking my automatic tranny to shift a little
more firm, and that's about it.

Is getting better fuel mixture with a wideband setup really going to
increase my horsepower that much? I'm running a 4.3L V6 that is
rated at about 200HP from the factory.

[huttler]

I called Ron at ECM yesterday, to find out the price and benefits of the Lambda Pro. He said the Lambda Pro runs $3,500. If you're on a budget, he highly recommends the NGK AFX with the NTK sensor. ECM designed the AFX for NGK, and he says that any negative reviews of the AFX are "full of s***."

Ron said he has toured each of the manufacturing plants of the Bosch and NTK sensors. He says that although the Bosch is very good for the price, the NTK is more in price for a reason. The NTK has an intricate manufacturing process that greatly increases the durability and operating range (he went into specifics, but I can't recall enough information to speak intelligently about it). He said it can accurately measure to 2.5 for Alcohol, 5.0 for Gas, and is accurate to within 0.1.

Needless to say, after 15 minutes of talking to Ron, I was very impressed with his knowledge on all this. I wish I had remembered more of the information to pass on.

I also went ahead and finally bought the AFX with NTK sensor from Ballenger Motor Sports. They definitely have the best price I've seen anywhere.

[KLUG'S SS]

I called Ron at ECM yesterday, to find out the price and benefits of the Lambda Pro. He said the Lambda Pro runs $3,500. If you're on a budget, he highly recommends the NGK AFX with the NTK sensor. ECM designed the AFX for NGK, and he says that any negative reviews of the AFX are "full of s***."

Ron said he has toured each of the manufacturing plants of the Bosch and NTK sensors. He says that although the Bosch is very good for the price, the NTK is more in price for a reason. The NTK has an intricate manufacturing process that greatly increases the durability and operating range (he went into specifics, but I can't recall enough information to speak intelligently about it). He said it can accurately measure to 2.5 for Alcohol, 5.0 for Gas, and is accurate to within 0.1.

Needless to say, after 15 minutes of talking to Ron, I was very impressed with his knowledge on all this. I wish I had remembered more of the information to pass on.

I also went ahead and finally bought the AFX with NTK sensor from Ballenger Motor Sports. They definitely have the best price I've seen anywhere.

Good call on purchasing the AFX, you won't be disappointed. They can't be beat for the price as far as accuracy goes.

[AleroB888]

Rockrz, what are you asking? If it's okay to datalog factory narrowband sensors in an attempt to dial in fueling?

Short answer: ABSOLUTELY NOT!

Narrowbands are only good for switching at stoich (whatever thay may be, depending on the fuel you're using), and can NOT give any proper data for anything other than such.

How does the stock PCM get its data to attempt to achieve the target AFR at WOT?