NGK AFX w/NTK Sensor

[12secSS]

I wanted to verify the accuracy of the NGK gauge display against what HPTuners reported. I am using the NGK AFX wideband with the NTK sensor, not the typical Bosch LSU4 adapted to the NGK. This sensor is supposed to be more accurate and used with the more expensive ECM LambdaPro (from what I have read). I rigged up the HPT to read the voltage output a well, I only logged AFR Cmmd, AFR, AFR Error% and Raw Voltage. I also used the VCM Bi-Directional controls to target an AFR from 8-17. My test vehicle is tuned to the tee, fuel trims are 0% on average throughout the rpm range. Interesting to see that the NTK sensor either wouldn't read higher then 15.8 or the vehcile used was unable to go any leaner. Also the NTK would read as rich as 9.8, but that was the richest the vehicle in question would go (pulse width limit ). I allowed at least 10 seconds for the fuel to stablize before recording the gauge display data. It actually was off no more then 1% from what HPTuners was logging. Pretty impressive sensor, considering the Bosch LSU4 (using an NGK, AEM, and Innovative controllers) has given me results varying largely on the extreme ends of the range, while being .2 off in the 14.5-14.7 range.

Next time I have time with the "test vehicle" I will have to log pulse width and determine if the vehicle couldn't go leaner/richer then commanded ... or if the sensor couldn't report a lower/higher voltage then specified.

Disclaimer: This viewpoint is solely based on my experience. It is not intended to be a scientific analysis of the Bosch LSU4 versus the NTK sensor. This was by no means a scientific experiment, but a simple study. Your results may vary.

[MMGT1]

I was able to do a very nice job with mine using the same set-up.
Greg Banish told me to go with that set up and it's been nice for me. My bro just got the pro version for us to play with(mine's old school)and we'll be using this on his Grand Am and his Firehawk. Look foward to getting into the TA I tell you!!!

Paul

[12secSS]

Yup, I purchased the AFX on Greg Banish's suggestion, I also opted (now) for the NTK sensor, also based on Greg's suggestion.

[eficalibrator]

Now you see why ECM (the actual manufacturer of the AFX) is the standard of the industry? Sometimes it takes and experiement like this to prove the point. I use an ECM LambdaPro for a reason...

[12secSS]

Greg, If I could afford it, I would opt for the Lambda Pro as well. But glad this setup is much better then what I have previously used. As always your knowledge is always welcomed by me.

[EC_Tune]

George,
Next test will be with all widebands installed on the left collector and all reporting to HP Tuners. Right?

BTW: That's about what I have experienced when commanding an AFR. Did you try going leaner than 16 to see what the AFX would do?

[eficalibrator]

Did you try going leaner than 16 to see what the AFX would do?

The output/display of the AFX is clipped at 16.0 AFR (lambda=1.1) on the lean side. This is one of the sacrifices ECM made in producing this low cost unit. Since there's really no reason to run this lean in real life, there should be no practical limitation associated with this in the aftermarket "tuning" makret. This unit is still VERY accurate where it counts, between lambda=0.7 and 1.0.

There are better options if you're genuinely concerned about accuracy in the lean spectrum, like the AFM1000, LambdaPro, or AFM1600.

[EC_Tune]

Thanks Greg,
Hehe -- I just read that too. And you're right, no need for AFR's leaner than 16 (unless you're in DFCO).

[Billf6531]

... or lean cruise.

[EC_Tune]

No reason to go leaner than 16 there either according to Greg as it ends up having the same effect as going richer.

[A_W_O_L]

I have a question then reguarding AFR's with diesel... reading the AFX manual it states that diesel's regularly run leaner than 16 and that it will not display anthing leaner than that....is that to say that the sensor is capable of leaner and if you are logging data using hptuners, that you would still be able to accurately read beyond 16 and that the display is clipped at 16 or what? Maybe diesel tuning is better done with an EGT... I don't know... I'm just asking because I'm in the market for one and will probably play with a diesel...
All input is welcome...Thanks!

For anyone interested...I found what looks like a good price for the NGK AFX with the NTK Sensor for $259.99 here: http://hinsonsupercars.com/p-946-ngk...eband-kit.aspx

[12secSS]

The controller will out 16.00 AFR at 5V reference. Any leaner will be outside the controllers output voltage range. The NTK sensor can go leaner, but you need a controller that can output a different 0V-5V scale.

[A_W_O_L]

Okay, that makes sense.... Thanks for clarifying!

[Mep_q8]

you think the AFX with NTK would be good enough for a dyno sniffer??

[Ben Charles]

Few quick questions, just received my NGK AFX with NTK sensor

1.) As the sensor ages what do we need to do to recaliberate it, I know this is one of the cool features of the NGK AFX?
Edit: seems like I just need to make sure its caliberated about every time I use it? Ir Air_ turn clockwise till it says CAL, and it its Air- turn knob counterclockwise. I believe as long as its used often recal may not be needed, if it sits for a while and then go to tune then yes.

2.) When using standard HP tuners seems I can just hook the black wire to the body (ground) and the red wire (power) directly to my EGR wire and just power it be enabling the EGR in hptuners, is that correct?
Edit: Forgot all about the Yellow and Brown wire those seem to be my anolog output wires. So Yellow would go to (in my case Pin 55) EGR wire, and brown I could probably use the same ground as black above. Red (power) from above can be routed to a relay. Hope thats right?

3. Instead of using a bung, can't I just pull out my 02 sensor on the drivers plug side and and plug this one in, when finished tuning I will just install the factory 02 again.

[12secSS]

To answer your questions ...

1. I have had the same NTK sensor in use for over 3 years now. Sometimes tuning once a week, other times it sat for over 6 months without use. I have calibrated the sensor in free air before use and I have yet to move the dial in the back as it always reads "Cal -".

2. Red to power, Black to ground, Yellow to input, and Brown to common ground

3. That is what I always do, remove front driver O2 and place vehicle in Open Loop (either via VCM Controls or in the Editor).

[Ben Charles]

Thanks 12secSS, I have read a lot of your info on this stuff. Learned quite a bit.

[A.Dutsov]

what can be used as standalone data logger wih rpm input for the ntk afx? can it be used with innovate or some other relatively cheap unit, for arround 400-500 usd max ... i just want to log rpm vs afr i have ntk afx, but i dont know what else to buy...

[Montecarlodrag]

Innovate has some boxes which do what you want.

However, if you are not going to use to datalog with hptuners, you can buy a LM-2, it can log rpm from several sources including MSD ignition boxes (useful to log AFR and ROM in carbureted engines)

[Frost]

what can be used as standalone data logger wih rpm input for the ntk afx? can it be used with innovate or some other relatively cheap unit, for arround 400-500 usd max ... i just want to log rpm vs afr i have ntk afx, but i dont know what else to buy...

HPTuner's Pro in stand-alone mode