Torque Model coefficients - adjustment algorithm for Gen5?

[Roland_Price]

Can anyone point me to the generic algorithm for adjusting the Torque Model coefficients if there is one? I couldn't find any kind of more or less reliable step-by-step manual with at least a majority of points gathered in one place. I need to recalculate the coefficients after installing the supercharger on 2016 Camaro because the transmission is acting up on the upshifts

[TriPinTaZ]

There is a lot of torque model discussion already on this forum. What is your question that these past discussions hasn't answered?

[Roland_Price]

It's in the topic - is there an algorithm or a manual with a step-by-step manual on what goes first, second, etc.? I have found bits and pieces of info scattered around the forum, but nothing covering the whole process. If you have a list of resources (or topics) that could help - please share them

[TriPinTaZ]

No there is no step by step how to because it isn't that simple. The torque algorithm hard part is already done by HPTuners via the Virtual Torque Editor.

[Roland_Price]

That?s what I?m trying to understand - how to work with VT tables. How to calculate for the torque added with the supercharger install?

[eficalibrator]

That?s what I?m trying to understand - how to work with VT tables. How to calculate for the torque added with the supercharger install?

I have some training videos available that cover this, but the first thing I always ask people is: "How accurate is your Virtual VE model?" VVE leads the the dynamic aircharge estimate, which is the primary input to the torque model. If that isn't close, you will almost certainly have Virtual Torque (and thus, transmission torque/pressure) issues.

[Roland_Price]

I?m not sure about this, but I have MAF dialed in and my widebands show in the log that the afr is correct throughout the pull. The car goes into speed density almost instantly, I guess that?s the issue I will need to deal with next

[GHuggins]

I've been using the VE table to dial in my torque models for possibly 1.5 years now, albeit I was doing it an incredibly hard complete roundabout backwards screwy way up until the last 6 or 7 months ago, I now use a program that was created to "mostly correct" the torque models and it works amazingly. I can't share it, but if you use the % change in the VE table to correct your map and airmass models, it seems to get them extremely close. On top of correcting some other tables that play into things, I've fixed PD blower throttle issues for variable cam movement on top of keeping trannys shifting near stock and it even fixing several other things. Basically anything that changes the airflow models changes the torque models. Granted it's not perfect. You want it perfect, you're going to have to pay a lot of mullah and use a lot of math combined with programs to back calculate it on a dyno as accurately as you can.

Now if you are sure your VE table is FULLY dialed in, you can post your current tune file and I'll post one with changes back, but keep in mind the torque models will cause fueling to change and will need some fine tweaking to both your models and fueling afterwords. You'll also need to post a driving log, so I can get some map references for airmass corrections.

[Roland_Price]

I've been using the VE table to dial in my torque models for possibly 1.5 years now, albeit I was doing it an incredibly hard complete roundabout backwards screwy way up until the last 6 or 7 months ago, I now use a program that was created to "mostly correct" the torque models and it works amazingly. I can't share it, but if you use the % change in the VE table to correct your map and airmass models, it seems to get them extremely close. On top of correcting some other tables that play into things, I've fixed PD blower throttle issues for variable cam movement on top of keeping trannys shifting near stock and it even fixing several other things. Basically anything that changes the airflow models changes the torque models. Granted it's not perfect. You want it perfect, you're going to have to pay a lot of mullah and use a lot of math combined with programs to back calculate it on a dyno as accurately as you can.

Now if you are sure your VE table is FULLY dialed in, you can post your current tune file and I'll post one with changes back, but keep in mind the torque models will cause fueling to change and will need some fine tweaking to both your models and fueling afterwords. You'll also need to post a driving log, so I can get some map references for airmass corrections.

My VE table is fully stock now. Both of the tuners that tuned my car did a lazy job of setting up only the PE fueling and spark and not touching the VE table at all, but the second one made adjustments to the torque model. Here are the links to the stock and last tune:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1f3b...usp=drive_link
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eob...usp=drive_link

I have a 2016 Camaro, but it's a v6. And since the v6 scene is pretty much nonexistent I want to understand the overall method of adjusting the torque model on GenV to tune it myself. Would really appreciate if you could point me in the right direction with your example done on my tune. Thanks

[TriPinTaZ]

That?s what I?m trying to understand - how to work with VT tables. How to calculate for the torque added with the supercharger install?

This topic has been discussed A LOT so I'm going to assume you didn't really dive in and read the information that is already here.

What issues are you having that make you want to change the Virtual Torque and VVE more than your tuners?

[Roland_Price]

I wrote what I need in previous posts, including the starting one and my answers to yours, so I?m going to assume you didn?t read those

Please read them, I have nothing more to add

[TriPinTaZ]

I did read them but there is no datalog and no definitive description of the issue. "Acting up on the upshift" isn't descriptive and there is no datalog showing what you're asking. "Car goes into speed density almost immediately" doesn't make sense to me so I'm not sure what you mean there either.

What the Torque Model and the Coefficients do is already on the forum. If you want help, post the datalog with relevant the PID's and be more descriptive of what issues you're facing. No one is going to re write a novels worth of how things work when its been highly discussed already. I'm trying to guide you to a way to get help and learn along the way.

I'm not here to tell you to give up, but rather for you to post relevant info to get the help you're requesting. Once things are more clear for some of us that are willing to help make some changes for you or suggest what to do, you will probably learn a lot about the torque model.

You probably need to log the right PID's first. Here is a config file for a Gen6 Camaro to capture the useful channels for the issues you're facing. Feel free to use it...or not.SBT_Conf.xml

[GHuggins]

Ve has to be dialed in first. That's what everyone is trying to say I believe. Ve on the v6s is a royal pain. Most likely why it wasn't touched.

[Roland_Price]

Thanks, that's what my next stop will be. But until 2 months from now I can't do live tuning - I had my back surgery on Tuesday and will be tied to a bed at least for a month, so I want to catch on the fundamentals of TM meanwhile.

As for the VE on v6s - can you please define why exactly? I can't see the difference in the method between 6 and 8, they use the same(ish) set of PIDs and tables, E82 is basically an E92 with some not crucial stuff missing

[Roland_Price]

I did read them but there is no datalog and no definitive description of the issue. "Acting up on the upshift" isn't descriptive and there is no datalog showing what you're asking. "Car goes into speed density almost immediately" doesn't make sense to me so I'm not sure what you mean there either.

What the Torque Model and the Coefficients do is already on the forum. If you want help, post the datalog with relevant the PID's and be more descriptive of what issues you're facing. No one is going to re write a novels worth of how things work when its been highly discussed already. I'm trying to guide you to a way to get help and learn along the way.

I'm not here to tell you to give up, but rather for you to post relevant info to get the help you're requesting. Once things are more clear for some of us that are willing to help make some changes for you or suggest what to do, you will probably learn a lot about the torque model.

You probably need to log the right PID's first. Here is a config file for a Gen6 Camaro to capture the useful channels for the issues you're facing. Feel free to use it...or not.SBT_Conf.xml

Must be a cognitive decline on my side - I meant Power Enrichment, don't know why I wrote Speed Density. With the current setup, the car goes into PD on 50% TPS + 60% torque until 3000 RPM and 40% higher. The issue with the transmission is that when switching on WOT or close to it there’s a significant push back-forward-back and then the switching proceeds. I have a rebuilt trans and when the car was NA I tuned the trans myself to have the perfect shifts in every scenario. After going SC I had to turn off the Torque Management completely for power downshifts and upshifts and now they are a bit rough, but nowhere near as bad the shifts I was having with TM on. All the non-aggressive up- and downshifts that are happening on less than ~4000 RPM or so are more or less okay, but could've been better. I can work with them more on the trans side, but that would be a crutch, and I want to get the engine side properly tuned. The main issue for me is that I can't see these bad shifts on the logs, everything seems fine more or less (or maybe I don't know where to look)

I read about the TM and coefficients and I will be reading more, but that is not what I'm asking - I need a method to tune it, not an understanding of what they are. So far I have no understanding of what the coefficients should be and more importantly - how to validate if they are the right ones. The only thing I can see from the logs is that the predicted torques differ from the delivered and actual ones by significant amount. It's the only GenV GM car I own so I can't tell whether it's normal or an issue.

Thanks for the config, you've got it arranged more conveniently, mine's a mess outside of the main parameters. Here are a couple of logs with my old channels (nevermind the high IAT and false knock): https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...dS?usp=sharing

[GHuggins]

You have both moving intake and exhaust cams. Need to use Cringer's VE assistant and work both the coefficients and VE tables at the same time. Normally takes me anywhere from 30 mins to an hour per revision just working the VE table when the intake cam is moving not to mention the exhaust cam.

[Roland_Price]

You have both moving intake and exhaust cams. Need to use Cringer's VE assistant and work both the coefficients and VE tables at the same time. Normally takes me anywhere from 30 mins to an hour per revision just working the VE table when the intake cam is moving not to mention the exhaust cam.

So basically it's just more time consuming, I can live with that. Thanks for reminding of the Cringer's VE assistant, I definitely to get familiar with it prior to tuning VE