why am I maxing my VE Table

[Walkerbk]

I am a 100% DIY kind of guy that loves learning and building but this tune is kicking my butt.

I had a 5.3l in my datsun 280z and just finished the build and swap over to a 6.0l with a 228/232 112 LSA cam, PRC heads, 52lb injectors... it idles just fine (wants to die when coming down to idle but then catches and comes back to idle).

The biggest problem I am having however is I cant get my VE table tuned. below 2400 rpm it is spot on within 2% but above that it keeps pinging lean no mater how much fuel I add via the VE table.

I have updated my injector tables (flow rates, limits, offset) but am not sure about the injector timing.

I feel like it is an injector issue as my VE table is hitting 159@3200 rpm and my understanding is that shouldn't be above 100 (or close to there at max).

Any help would be appreciated between the stumbling idle to the crazy VE tables.

[Walkerbk]

Attached is a log file from this morning. I am trying to relearn my idle air flow to better smooth out my idle so there was no acceleration.

[Ben Charles]

Didn’t look at log, but for VE to be that high I bet it’s Injector data off..

[2xLS1]

Injector brand and part#?

[Hondaeater]

I am a 100% DIY kind of guy that loves learning and building but this tune is kicking my butt.

I had a 5.3l in my datsun 280z and just finished the build and swap over to a 6.0l with a 228/232 112 LSA cam, PRC heads, 52lb injectors... it idles just fine (wants to die when coming down to idle but then catches and comes back to idle).

The biggest problem I am having however is I cant get my VE table tuned. below 2400 rpm it is spot on within 2% but above that it keeps pinging lean no mater how much fuel I add via the VE table.

I have updated my injector tables (flow rates, limits, offset) but am not sure about the injector timing.

I feel like it is an injector issue as my VE table is hitting 159@3200 rpm and my understanding is that shouldn't be above 100 (or close to there at max).

Any help would be appreciated between the stumbling idle to the crazy VE tables.

WOW no it should not hit that HIGH VE% LOL!!

Go to Editor>Layout tab> Add to layout> Chart vs time. It will populate a new tab. Delete all the charts and go upload the one I posted here. This will add another Chart vs time tab ok, If you click Chart vs time tab and hold drag into chart it will have a cross pattern show up now find the center and release It will take up whole page now and still list channels. If you do not like that, Use cross to place it in the position you prefer. it just makes the data easier to see but it is a personal thing.

Let's get some good data to see what is going on. You must fail your MAF so I have done that in this tune file. Please try these channels to get some data.
Add the WB and put it between/near the AFR and Lambda Commanded channels.

Is this a built transmission?

What is your injector part number and brand?

Startup flair control had positive #s?
Do you have AC?

E fans are too tight. need about 7deg between them. It will burn up relay cycling.

If it is a cold start, key on before start and wait about 3 sec then start. Some useful data is in there. Also helps prime.

Your tune Cylinder volume is set to 5.7L not a 6.0L. This is going to change the VE automatically if you change that value. Be aware. Not a bad thing but it does that ok.

I only made some minor changes that will help in the diagnostics not tune it.
I added some details in the Notes, edit tab, add more if anything stands out.

[Walkerbk]

@2xLs1

They are Delphi 12613412 flex fuel injectors which should be 52lb injectors at 58PSI. I am running a returnless fuel rail with a corvette fuel filter. Fuel is ran via 3/8in ptfe fuel lines and 3/8in steel hard line.

@Hondaeater

Its raining right now so I logged a real quick in the garage (this car isnt ever going to see rain). See attached.

My MAF is failed and has been for quite some time as I have been working on my VE table.

Built 4l60E transmission with BW clutches, 4l79 3-4 drum with 12 clutches... the whole 9 yards and connected with a 9in precision industries single disk torque converter set to 3200 rpm.

injectors are delphi 12613412

Im not sure what flare control you are referring to

Yes i have AC installed and I just finished hooking it up. I have had the rough idle long before the AC but it is worsened by turning on the AC (will kill the engine sometimes).

I havent had problems with the E Fan before but I will go back and relook it. Im running a Ford Tauris with the volvo relay. It really doesnt cycle that often as the low setting will cool it quite well. Only time the high kicks on is spirited stop and go traffic.

I forgot to change the base cylinder volume. It should check out now. My understanding is that should help out some as it is essentially increasing the ve table by .04.

[Hondaeater]

@2xLs1

They are Delphi 12613412 flex fuel injectors which should be 52lb injectors at 58PSI. I am running a returnless fuel rail with a corvette fuel filter. Fuel is ran via 3/8in ptfe fuel lines and 3/8in steel hard line.

@Hondaeater

Its raining right now so I logged a real quick in the garage (this car isnt ever going to see rain). See attached.

My MAF is failed and has been for quite some time as I have been working on my VE table. No it wasn't failed in previous tune posted.
This will not fail maf.JPG



Built 4l60E transmission with BW clutches, 4l79 3-4 drum with 12 clutches... the whole 9 yards and connected with a 9in precision industries single disk torque converter set to 3200 rpm.

injectors are delphi 12613412

Im not sure what flare control you are referring to There was positive numbers in the flair control at startup.
flair has positive values.JPG

Yes i have AC installed and I just finished hooking it up. I have had the rough idle long before the AC but it is worsened by turning on the AC (will kill the engine sometimes).

I havent had problems with the E Fan before but I will go back and relook it. Im running a Ford Tauris with the volvo relay. It really doesnt cycle that often as the low setting will cool it quite well. Only time the high kicks on is spirited stop and go traffic. Very close ON-OFF degrees sometimes makes the relay cycle unless it has a hard time ever getting to the OFF cycle and just stays ON all the time. 2 degrees to turn on or off and only 5 degrees between the two fans is tight tolerances. If it works for ya leave it but if the relay goes out I would change it.

fans set close.JPG

Responses in the quote.


I forgot to change the base cylinder volume. It should check out now. My understanding is that should help out some as it is essentially increasing the ve table by .04.

Nope it REDUCES the VE table when you raise the Cylinder volume.


If you hit the details tab under channels list it shows the status of MAF.
No fail from original.JPG

NOW failed.JPG

NOW it is Failed and why you may have been having poor results trying to tune a VE table in blended mode, both MAF and VE.

Not good data without those channels I posted. You have a lot of channels that are not going to help you. Very curious why the EQ commanded is not populating? It is the commanded eq from ecm that is the same as the AFR but in Lambda?

If you get time, download my channels I posted and save your current channels using the floppy icon then use the gear folder icon to load the posted channels. Make a new log using them as you cannot change the channels list once a log has been made it must record the channels from the list upon making it.

[Alvin]

I'll bet that this is low on fuel pressure at heavy throttle/wide open. Have you verified yet?

When fuel pressure goes low people end up compensating for lean VE tables with more airflow. This is how you end up with 140% VE

[Walkerbk]

@Honda Eater. Still trying to get the table to work. for some reason it isnt wanting to accept AFR Error.

I believe the problem lies in one of three locations.

1. injector table: I have seen multiple different tables covering Delphi 12613412 flex fuel injectors but im using the tables for a returnless fuel system from blindsquirrel who seems to know what he is talking about. If there is a problem here I do not know what else to do.

2. I feel like my wideband is going bad/gone bad. I think im running pig rich at high RPMs but it is reading 100% lean. Im not sure what to do about this other than replace it. sometimes if I turn it off and back on, the sensor will read accurate (showing 12-14 afr) then after reving it, it pegs back out as lean. The sensor is about 5 years old but has only been in use about a year.

3. One of my tables is so far off the ECU is going crazy.

[blindsquirrel]

Put it back into closed loop and see if the trims agree with what you wideband's been saying.

[blindsquirrel]

Where did the injectors come from? There are cheap but genuine 12613412s out there, but like everything there are also fake 12613412s too. Real data for the real injectors does not apply to the fake ones.

[Alvin]

I'll bet that this is low on fuel pressure at heavy throttle/wide open. Have you verified yet?

When fuel pressure goes low people end up compensating for lean VE tables with more airflow. This is how you end up with 140% VE

Also add narrow bands to the log and we can see if they match up with what the wideband is reporting..

[blindsquirrel]

It's also possible to get into a positive feedback loop, where you add so much fuel it creates a misfire which to an oxygen sensor shows up as LEAN. So you add even more fuel...

[Walkerbk]

So the injectors I bought were supposedly new OEM Delphi injectors... I am gandering at this point they were used at best cleaned up junk. I went back to my first tune after swapping injectors and updated my injector data and tried that out just to see. it got worse... MUCH WORSE. Miss fire, stumble, the whole nine yards. (Hondaeater I was able to get the historgram to work and set up an extra VE error table not that it really matters, see attached). It was so bad that I figured I would just go ahead and pull the spark plugs. photos are in the order of 2,4,6,8,1,3,5,7. the so what is they were all black except 1 and 3. My assumption is this means I had a lot of extra air pumping through the system (even more so at higher RPM) resulting in an overcompensation.

Long story short, @Blindsquarl I need to get a second set of injectors. Where do you recommend getting a new set from?
20230509_162000.jpg
20230509_162158.jpg
20230509_162332.jpg
20230509_162512.jpg
20230509_163051.jpg
20230509_163403.jpg
20230509_163514.jpg
20230509_163627.jpg

[blindsquirrel]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/274424906026
(note: lots of fake 12613412s all over Ebay, I can only vouch for these from this seller)

Real ones are cheap even from established sellers:
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=1887186
https://www.gmpartsdirect.com/oem-pa...embly-12613412

And I can't guarantee injectors will fix your problem, I just don't know of any other way to prove that an injector isn't what it claims to be other than replacing with a known-good.

[Walkerbk]

@ Blindsquirrel: if you vouch for BMZ Collectibles from Ebay I guess thats what I will go with them. $55 is cheap compared to LSXceleration at $225 which is who I was going to go with.

[Walkerbk]

Well I went ahead and ordered another set. Sadly I will be out of town for the next two weeks with work so the problem will have to wait but once I get back, I have full faith that blindsquirrel's tables should set me straight.

[blindsquirrel]

Not my tables, GM's tables. All my stuff is taken from stock tune files and converted between Gen4/3 formats.

[Alvin]

Also add narrow bands to the log and we can see if they match up with what the wideband is reporting..

You need to add the narrowbands so we can diagnose BUT its clear to see you have some sort of connection issue or something with your wideband. No way the AFR can change that hard that fast. This is a garbage in = garbage out situation when you are tuning.