Just finished VE tuning and MAF tuning with AEM 30 wideband. Need tuning help.

[LSROVER]

Hello all,

I just finished tuning my VE and MAF tables via AFR % error with an AEM 30 wideband. From everything I read it said to tune with the engine warm. I am fairly new at this but have spent hours watching youtube videos and reading how-to's.

For VE I would log during the morning drive to work and drove normally (all trims disabled). Logged afr error % and multiplied by percent half (3 seperate drives).

For MAF tuning I went on the highway and tried to have a steady state to hit all my cells. After I was done I enabled everything back to stock. I left LTFT disabled.

The problem is when the car is cold it back fires through the intake pretty bad at partial throttle while accelerating. When it warms up fully it drives normally.

Do you guys have any tips on how to remedy this?

Attached is my file and a log to critique.

Thanks in advance.

Setup:

2001 Land Rover Discovery 2
5.3
btr truck norris cam
42 lb ls3 injectors

[HATEHPTUNERS]

There are several good videos out there that can help you. Whatever you have done so far, is just not working, or right. Look at your VE Table in the 3D view... it should not look like that.. It should be nice, and smooth and not have the drastic jumps between columns like yours has. Watch this video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Z4bJ3QSfc

I would, at this point, put back the original VE table (hopefully you saved a copy of the original tune). If you don't have the original programming, you can find a tune for the same year vehicle/same engine, and then copy that VE Table over to your current tune. Once you get a factory VE table in place, highlight the 400 column and then multiply by .70. Then do the 800 column by .80.. Then the 1200 column by .90.. Then burn that in and start again tuning. You need to be sure that you are turning off the MAF while you are tuning the VE Table. I don't know what you did wrong in your tuning, but your log file shows you are RICH on deceleration, and LEAN on acceleration.
Watch the video above, and start over and see if you can get the VE table to be much smoother. If you feel you have the tune set up correctly, with the MAF turned off, and all the other things turned off, then something is wrong with your W/B O2, or the settings for your W/B O2 within Hp Tuners. When you are done tuning your VE Table, obviously the numbers are going to be different in the table, but over-all it should still be as smooth as the original stock VE table.

Here is more good reading material; https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-(w-pictures)

[LSROVER]

There are several good videos out there that can help you. Whatever you have done so far, is just not working, or right. Look at your VE Table in the 3D view... it should not look like that.. It should be nice, and smooth and not have the drastic jumps between columns like yours has. Watch this video; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4Z4bJ3QSfc

I would, at this point, put back the original VE table (hopefully you saved a copy of the original tune). If you don't have the original programming, you can find a tune for the same year vehicle/same engine, and then copy that VE Table over to your current tune. Once you get a factory VE table in place, highlight the 400 column and then multiply by .70. Then do the 800 column by .80.. Then the 1200 column by .90.. Then burn that in and start again tuning. You need to be sure that you are turning off the MAF while you are tuning the VE Table. I don't know what you did wrong in your tuning, but your log file shows you are RICH on deceleration, and LEAN on acceleration.
Watch the video above, and start over and see if you can get the VE table to be much smoother. If you feel you have the tune set up correctly, with the MAF turned off, and all the other things turned off, then something is wrong with your W/B O2, or the settings for your W/B O2 within Hp Tuners. When you are done tuning your VE Table, obviously the numbers are going to be different in the table, but over-all it should still be as smooth as the original stock VE table.

Here is more good reading material; https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-(w-pictures)

From searching a few threads there's some guys out there that believe that you should keep the VE table relatively close to what the afr error spits out. On the scanner I was showing less than 5 percent afr error in the majority of the cells. I did a tiny bit of hand smoothing in 3x4 rectangles to smooth it out a little. I experimented with smoothing out the graph by smoothing the whole table but the data became skewed.

I made a few mistakes in the beginning but I'm fairly confident I have the VE tune setup correctly with the MAF turned off and vice versa when tuning the MAF.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm seeing -30s on the stft when I let off the throttle and DFCO kicks in. When accelerating STFT goes to 0. I believe that is normal behavior.

Also, can you really expect a VE table to be as smooth as stock when a cam requires less fueling down low and more in the higher rpms when compared to stock?

Again, it only has hesitation/backfire when the engine is cold. When warm it drives great.

Appreciate any constructive criticism...

[blindsquirrel]

Did you look at your VE table in 3d mode? It's not supposed to look like that. The VE is throwing everything else off - f'rinstance, picking a point at semi-random the log is showing .95g/s cylair at 2700 RPM/98kPa MAP/47% throttle. That's simply not realistic. So the fake data in the VE is going to throw the spark off, too, since cylinder airmass is one of the axes in the main spark tables.

[LSROVER]

Did you look at your VE table in 3d mode? It's not supposed to look like that. The VE is throwing everything else off - f'rinstance, picking a point at semi-random the log is showing .95g/s cylair at 2700 RPM/98kPa MAP/47% throttle. That's simply not realistic. So the fake data in the VE is going to throw the spark off, too, since cylinder airmass is one of the axes in the main spark tables.

Yes I did but I guess part of the problem is I don't know what it's "supposed" to look like. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. I'm essentially following this and goat rope garage tutorials on YouTube which closely mimics the one below. The wideband numbers on the gauge match the vcm scanner. My axis' appear to be correct....

Set your commanded AFR to what you want it to be once you are finished tuning the vehicle, so OLFA is set where you want it for cold start, hot start and I recommend 1.0 at operating temps (although some big cams dont like stoich at some loads but that is off topic) and set your PE exactly as you want it ie approximately 1.14 (~12.8) from 2000rpm up, I personally like it slightly fatter above 6000rpm and then once you have finished your airmass model you can use a dyno or strip (much harder) to find the optimum AFR for your setup.

Set all your adders etc where you want them including spark and so on, tune the car how it will be in the long run, there are some personal exclusions on that when I tune but essentially I tune it how it will be driven once it is gone.

Now assuming your wideband, narrowband (not really suitable), EGT etc or whatever system you are using is accurate, and we have to or you are forever dealing with variables and no fixed point. Anyways, most common method is to use a wideband to create an accurate airmass model

- Disable DFCO/CFCO as this will skew all decel data, just use temp setting to max
- Set OLFA as you intend to leave it
- Disable COT
- Set spark as you wish to start, tuning spark and airmass modeling is a interleaved process, you can copy high to low if you wish, eliminating another variable
- Set PE to where you want it ~1.14 or so
- Turn off Lean Cruise of you have it
- Disable Closed Loop, pulling out the narrowband to install the wideband does this for you
- Reset the LTFTs (I personally disable them permanently regardless but that is off topic also)

Now using AFR Error against VE or MAF your aim is to get this to zero reagardless of the commanded AFR. Once you are within 2% or so go for Mult % - Half and experience will tell you if there is any skewed data in there. Get a good sample amount and do your best to achieve steady state in each and every cell.

I like to do tune by area, WOT, Cruise and Idle but if you wish you can combine them, this is personal choice.

Ok, so now you have an accurate air model for your vehicle, if you change spark you will have verify that this hasn't changed the model, hence an interleaved process.

The advantage of this is when you change the commanded AFR, say you up the PE to 1.20 (12.2) , the end result 'should' be an AFR of 12.2 without any further tuning, this is where you can use a dyno etc to optimise AFR for power. If your VE and/or MAF is accurate then you can change the commanded AFR with confidence that your actual AFR = commanded AFR not some sort of compromised result.

*This is somewhat controversial but I always (on setups that will utilise CL) re enable CL and then repeat the process for cruise (and idle to some extent) using STFTs against VE and/or MAF as despite what most say on the majority of setups serviceable NB sensors are very accurate at stoich and only stoich, I stress in most cases. This is a personal choice and for me just adds an independent means of verifying what the wideband has measured, I usually find it is within ~2%. I dont bother with this on idle on cammed setups as IMO NBs are not accurate on the vast majority of mild cams and up, there are exceptions but this is the rule for me.

Once this is done

- Re-enable Closed Loop, Lean Cruise (I disable it as most common widebands struggle with leaner AFRs I rather use closer to stoich and then command as apt), DFCO as appropriate.
- Turn COT back on (if desired)

[Hondaeater]

Hello all,

I just finished tuning my VE and MAF tables via AFR % error with an AEM 30 wideband. From everything I read it said to tune with the engine warm. I am fairly new at this but have spent hours watching youtube videos and reading how-to's.

For VE I would log during the morning drive to work and drove normally (all trims disabled). Logged afr error % and multiplied by percent half (3 seperate drives).

For MAF tuning I went on the highway and tried to have a steady state to hit all my cells. After I was done I enabled everything back to stock. I left LTFT disabled.

The problem is when the car is cold it back fires through the intake pretty bad at partial throttle while accelerating. When it warms up fully it drives normally.

Do you guys have any tips on how to remedy this?

Attached is my file and a log to critique.

Thanks in advance.

Setup:

2001 Land Rover Discovery 2
5.3
btr truck norris cam
42 lb ls3 injectors

If you don't have cats (disabled in tune) 0 out the Spark> Base Correction> catalyst heating table.

You have a DBC TB right, your IAC steps need to be set. BRA is setup for a DBW TB. At op temp you should be at 30-40 steps IAC position. Adjust the set screw to get that calibrated. It must be at op temp of 170* or above and go slow between setscrew adjustments allowing time for the IAC to work the new calculated air. Are you using the stock TB or aftermarket? If you need more details for DBC TB setscrew adjustment.. https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...737#post695737
You would start out by setting the BRA back to stock values THEN adjust the IAC count for 30-40. In that order.

What is the LSA of that cam and the specs?

You said you used the AFR error but I do not see the WB channel?

Would you log using these channels and add the WB. You can remove the Idle base and LTIT P/N channels for your manual application.

I recommend using the Eq ratio error ( need to add the Equivalence ratio commanded channel) and WB transformed to EQ ratio not AFR ratio.
Stay tuned..

[LSROVER]

If you don't have cats (disabled in tune) 0 out the Spark> Base Correction> catalyst heating table.

You have a DBC TB right, your IAC steps need to be set. BRA is setup for a DBW TB. At op temp you should be at 30-40 steps IAC position. Adjust the set screw to get that calibrated. It must be at op temp of 170* or above and go slow between setscrew adjustments allowing time for the IAC to work the new calculated air. Are you using the stock TB or aftermarket? If you need more details for DBC TB setscrew adjustment.. https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...737#post695737
You would start out by setting the BRA back to stock values THEN adjust the IAC count for 30-40. In that order.

In the log posted I had the idle bumped up to 900 rpm to trouble shoot something swap related. During my lunch break I put it back down to 800 rpm and my IAC counts were 25-30 in Park.

What is the LSA of that cam and the specs?

212/22X, .552/.552, 107 LSA

You said you used the AFR error but I do not see the WB channel?

The posted log was after I completed both VE and MAF tuning with the AEM WB. Since then I've removed it and reinstalled my stock o2 sensor.

Would you log using these channels and add the WB. You can remove the Idle base and LTIT P/N channels for your manual application.

Yes, I can do this on my way to work tomorrow. Log with the stock narrowbands installed or should I put my WB back in? Also, put settings back as if I'm tuning VE?

I recommend using the Eq ratio error ( need to add the Equivalence ratio commanded channel) and WB transformed to EQ ratio not AFR ratio.
Stay tuned..

[blindsquirrel]

I'm spending way too much time looking through your changelogs and I have a question about your MAP sensor. What's the part number of the physical sensor being used? Has it been changed recently from one style to another?

[blindsquirrel]

And why was injector data changed on 8/09? Injector data is the foundation everything else is built on.

... injector data and MAP linear/offset data are the foundation everything else is built on...

...AMONGST OUR WEAPONRY are such elements as injector data, MAP linear/offset, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope...

[LSROVER]

I'm spending way too much time looking through your changelogs and I have a question about your MAP sensor. What's the part number of the physical sensor being used? Has it been changed recently from one style to another?

Map sensor is stock 2006 Chevy Silverado 5.3 AC Delco Part #12614970 70461

I'm using a sheet metal intake manifold with 102 tb from southwest performance (OEM GM IAC and TPS sensors).

When I initially got it running I was using the ls3 style map (GM Part #213-4681) so that it could bolt to the back of the intake manifold (where it had a provision for it). I had to use a conversion harness to make that work. I ended up going back to the stock one and input data from a factory file for the map sensor.

Long story short I had a mail order tune where I discovered that the VE tune was basically untouched and the dynamic airflow table high rpm disable was set to 1500 rpm leading me to think it was a MAF only tune. It didn't drive all that great so from there I decided to try to tune it myself.

And why was injector data changed on 8/09? Injector data is the foundation everything else is built on.

... injector data and MAP linear/offset data are the foundation everything else is built on...

...AMONGST OUR WEAPONRY are such elements as injector data, MAP linear/offset, an almost fanatical devotion to the Pope...

Base land rover pressure is 50 psi (mech gauge on rail), return-less
Injectors are 42 lb bosch injectors (short stubby style, part #0280158051). The IFR Table was initially set as such from the mail order tune:

31.6845607433829 31.9945857995804 32.3046108557778 32.6146359119753 32.9246609681728 33.2346860243703 33.4827060693283 33.7307261142863 34.0407511704838 34.2267662042022 34.4127812379207 34.5987962716392 34.7848113053577 34.9708263390762 35.2188463840342 35.4048614177527 35.6528814627107

This didn't seem correct to me so I went digging on the forums and found an excel file that had 42 lb ls3 injector data where i changed the offset, short pulse, and IFR. I ended up using all that data before attempting to tune my truck.

Does the injector seem correct to you?


Picture of my setup:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/Vssxzi8LfCmQNFhX7

[blindsquirrel]

Injectors are 42 lb bosch injectors (short stubby style, part #0280158051).

I'm a bit worried about you using that number as a description, because it seems the only places calling them by that are notoriously unreliable - ebay, amazon, aliexpress, walmart (FFS!)...

I'd have a lot more confidence that you had real genuine legit injectors if you'd called them 12576341. Or something that reputable sources list as an interchange with that Bosch number. Even Bosch-branded listings don't show that number as interchange for 2010-2015 LS3 stuff.

[LSROVER]

I'm a bit worried about you using that number as a description, because it seems the only places calling them by that are notoriously unreliable - ebay, amazon, aliexpress, walmart (FFS!)...

I'd have a lot more confidence that you had real genuine legit injectors if you'd called them 12576341. Or something that reputable sources list as an interchange with that Bosch number. Even Bosch-branded listings don't show that number as interchange for 2010-2015 LS3 stuff.

I was a bit worried about this myself. I got them off ebay. Do you think this could be the culprit of all my problems?

What injector do you suggest for my setup? Its a daily driver type vehicle i'm not looking for max hp or anything like that. I was even thinking about switching to a stockish intake and a oem throttle body. I would require more work on my end but its been in the back of my head.

Links? I don't mind starting over I just want to know I have the proper gear.

[blindsquirrel]

I think that could 100% be the source of every single one of these problems.

What's the injector boss ID on your intake manifold? Is it specifically made for the larger LS3 style (0.587" bore) or is it the more common truck-size (0.551") and the LS3's are just stuffed into the smaller hole? If it'll work with 0.551" lower-o-ring injectors, the L96 truck 50lb'ers (12613412) are a no-brainer, market is flooded with genuine parts for some reason so they're super cheap. Like $20/ea cheap from legit retail sources.

[LSROVER]

I think that could 100% be the source of every single one of these problems.

What's the injector boss ID on your intake manifold? Is it specifically made for the larger LS3 style (0.587" bore) or is it the more common truck-size (0.551") and the LS3's are just stuffed into the smaller hole? If it'll work with 0.551" lower-o-ring injectors, the L96 truck 50lb'ers (12613412) are a no-brainer, market is flooded with genuine parts for some reason so they're super cheap. Like $20/ea cheap from legit retail sources.

I think I am going to try these. Can you point me in the right direction for the injector data?

[blindsquirrel]

2010 Yukon 6.0 L96 E38 T43 1GKZKREG0AR189018 - 12613412.hpt

Both the IFR and Offset vs something something tables will be using data from the E38's 348kPa to 428kPa columns for your 50psi system, not the more typical 408-488 for 58psi. Short Pulse Adder is not affected, the conversion spreadsheet does fine on that one.

[LSROVER]

Attached is a log file from when I was on my 3rd VE tuning log with the aem wideband...

[blindsquirrel]

Doesn't really matter, nothing will be giving you valid data if the injector data doesn't match the actual injector characteristics.

[Alvin]

I haven't read every word of this post yet.. so I might have missed something.. But just plotting your AFR error.. you still have a ways to go.


Capture.PNG


And I agree.. The market is flooded with counterfeit injectors that do not perform as they should. I'd use legit injectors from a reliable source.

People will come in for a tune with injectors they paid literally a 1/6 of the normal price. It's a shame. It almost never works out.

[Hondaeater]

From searching a few threads there's some guys out there that believe that you should keep the VE table relatively close to what the afr error spits out. On the scanner I was showing less than 5 percent afr error in the majority of the cells. I did a tiny bit of hand smoothing in 3x4 rectangles to smooth it out a little. I experimented with smoothing out the graph by smoothing the whole table but the data became skewed.

I made a few mistakes in the beginning but I'm fairly confident I have the VE tune setup correctly with the MAF turned off and vice versa when tuning the MAF.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm seeing -30s on the stft when I let off the throttle and DFCO kicks in. When accelerating STFT goes to 0. I believe that is normal behavior.

Also, can you really expect a VE table to be as smooth as stock when a cam requires less fueling down low and more in the higher rpms when compared to stock?

Again, it only has hesitation/backfire when the engine is cold. When warm it drives great.

Appreciate any constructive criticism...

LSROVER, when you are finished tuning 1 of the fuel modes, take the MAF only mode ok, then YES!!..... after you tune the VE Only mode the air mass should be VERY close. Think about it. If the tune of MAF Only is good and calibrated with good injector data, do you think the engine is somehow NOT going to need the same air and fuel because it is in VE mode only? Using the MAF frequency airflow table as a reference, the VE airmass should be the same, within 0.5-0.6 g/s

If the MAF tubing is a different size, first you would scale the Frequency airflow table then fine tune it using the fuel trims or WB EQ error.

Blindsquirrel laid it out clearly though. If the injector data is incorrect, the results may be less than optimal or even damaging.

Got a log idling at op temp with those channels I posted yet? These projects have a life of their own. I look forward to seeing the data log when you get to it. Back fires and hesitation can be from many things, need the data.

[LSROVER]

LSROVER, when you are finished tuning 1 of the fuel modes, take the MAF only mode ok, then YES!!..... after you tune the VE Only mode the air mass should be VERY close. Think about it. If the tune of MAF Only is good and calibrated with good injector data, do you think the engine is somehow NOT going to need the same air and fuel because it is in VE mode only? Using the MAF frequency airflow table as a reference, the VE airmass should be the same, within 0.5-0.6 g/s

If the MAF tubing is a different size, first you would scale the Frequency airflow table then fine tune it using the fuel trims or WB EQ error.

Blindsquirrel laid it out clearly though. If the injector data is incorrect, the results may be less than optimal or even damaging.

Got a log idling at op temp with those channels I posted yet? These projects have a life of their own. I look forward to seeing the data log when you get to it. Back fires and hesitation can be from many things, need the data.

Here is something I notice.

When I was tuning with the AEM WB (hooked up through a serial to USB adapter) to my laptop the AFR error was showing around 5 percent across the MAF error map and at idle.

Today when I was logging STFT LTFT MATH error using the factory o2 sensors stft was -20 to -25.

I'm wondering if the AEM wideband is not calibrated correctly.

Attached is a log at idle after using the STFT LTFT MATH error to calibrate the maf.