Running rich

[braindead44]

Hi guys. I'm new to this so have mercy on me. I'm an old dog trying to learn new tricks and I'm thinking maybe I should have stuck to carbs and points distributors.
My build is a 2001 s10 with 2000 LM7 ,billet 78/75 vs racing turbo ,sloppy stage 2 cam ,pac1218 springs ,decapped inj. and walbro 450. I've managed to get it to start and idle but it's super rich. My wb reads lean ,but my nose says otherwise. I believe the gage is installed correctly but I think the o2 sensor is bad. I contacted AEM and they seemed to agree with me , but told me there is no warranty on the sensor. It has about 15 mins run time on it and hasn't worked correctly since it was installed. They also told me that running too rich can ruin the sensor. I'm going to try a new sensor soon as I can, but I wonder if someone could look at my log file and see if you can spot the problem.

2bar running rich.hptcorrected inj flow rate from 70 to 80.hpl

[5FDP]

Verify that fuel pressure is steady at 58psi so you know the flow rate for the those injectors isn't wrong.

Which MAP sensor did you purchase too? Just checking to see if the linear and offset settings match what you are using.

It could be lean or it could be rich, with no cat you really can't tell much if you ask me unless it's all black and sooty coming out the tail pipe. The unknown though is that wideband sensor.

[MMGT1]

I will never use any sensor to tune idle when a cam or headers are involved. I don't care what people say. I go into VCM controls while scanning and take control of AFR. Lean the AFR until it shutters lean and then back it off a little until it's stable. Make note of that AFR and then change it to that value in the tune leaving it OL in the idle area and then not trust wideband readings until somewhere around 1200 to 1400 rpm. You'll save yourself nightmare after nightmare trying to tune idle with a sensor. There is too much overlap from a cam and lack of pressure and heat from headers. They just don't read properly in such an environment.

[braindead44]

Verify that fuel pressure is steady at 58psi so you know the flow rate for the those injectors isn't wrong.

Which MAP sensor did you purchase too? Just checking to see if the linear and offset settings match what you are using.

It could be lean or it could be rich, with no cat you really can't tell much if you ask me unless it's all black and sooty coming out the tail pipe. The unknown though is that wideband sensor.

I used AC Delco #213-1631 2bar map sensor. The exhaust is sooty and the fumes burn my eyes instantly. It actually idles pretty good considering how rich it smells. It won't take the throttle though. It hesitates bad. I bought the wide band from Amazon and they sent me another sensor. Nice to see that they stand behind the product even though AEM won't.
My fuel pressure is 65 psi so I adjusted my flow rate accordingly. I had my injectors flowed at 4 bar and they flowed 76.5 so at the higher pressure I have them flowing 80.7 lbs. Does that sound right?. I'm gonna try to get the pressure down to 58.
Thanks for the response and for not making me feel like an idiot. I'll give it another try when I get the sensor. Do you think running rich for that short of a time will trash the o2?

[braindead44]

I will never use any sensor to tune idle when a cam or headers are involved. I don't care what people say. I go into VCM controls while scanning and take control of AFR. Lean the AFR until it shutters lean and then back it off a little until it's stable. Make note of that AFR and then change it to that value in the tune leaving it OL in the idle area and then not trust wideband readings until somewhere around 1200 to 1400 rpm. You'll save yourself nightmare after nightmare trying to tune idle with a sensor. There is too much overlap from a cam and lack of pressure and heat from headers. They just don't read properly in such an environment.

Thanks for the response. I'll give that a try. The learning curve to this stuff is pretty steep for someone who grew up in the 60's. This is my first attempt at a fuel injected tune. I'm kinda lost.

[MMGT1]

This way you will be tuning "old school" for the idle. Let your ass dyno and ears tell you when you have idle where you like it, lol. Sounds like you have the experience to know exactly what I'm saying here.

[dermotw]

I learnt also (the hard way...) that the WB is a waste of space at and around idle, when you have a cam, heads, headers etc... Even playing with the ECU injection parameters won't really help at idle, you just have to do it as said above... these days my WB says 18:1 most of the time at (O/L) idle!

Running rich for a while won't do in the sensor, imho...

[braindead44]

I still haven't got my wb working right but I've been looking at my log file and I'm seeing some things that I have questions about .
I noticed some knock retard coming in. Also my intake manifold pressure is at 75/80 kpa but when I put a vaccumm gage on it I only got about 8 in/vac which is about 27kpa. That's quite a difference . When I converted to a 2bar os the linear and offset settings were already posted in my tune. They are set at 200 kpa linear and 10.33 offset. On the sloppy mechanics wiki page they show it to be 207.66
linear and 9 offset. I don't know which one is right. I'm also seeing o2 voltage readouts in my scan but they are not hooked up. I don't get it. Also my pe enable is set at 55kpa but my map is showing more than that at idle. Could I be going into pe at idle?
Sorry to throw so much crap at you but I don't feel comfortable trying to make changes when I don't understand what I'm doing.
Your thoughts would be appreciated.

[5FDP]

The MAP data needs to match the sensor. I forget if that sensor is 200/8.00 but you can do some googling to find out what it is. Try to make the KEY on ENGINE off kpa reading match for the altitude you are at. Say you are at roughly sea level but the KPA reading is 105 or 95, that would generally be off because 100kpa is where it should be at sea level.

o2 sensors voltages always read in the scanned even if they are unplugged, 450mv is what they default too.

PE has several thresholds that must be met to enter PE. In your case it's 55kpa, 70% throttle and over 2000 rpm. So at idle you will never enter PE.

[braindead44]

Well I just tried to change my map settings . I changed the linear from 200 to 207.66 and the offset from10.33 to 9. Flashed to pcm ,
then scaned with key in the on position. Map reading still is 105 kpa.Can I be doing this incorrectly. I'm going to engine , airflow then the map settings are on the left. I just enter my settings then save , then write to pcm. Nothing changes in scanner. For my altitude of 1085 feet I should be at around 97 kpa. The 207.66 and 9 settings are from the Sloppy Mechanics Wiki page. The map I'm using is for a 2004 Pontiac Gran Prix GTP 2 Bar . The part # is AC Delco 213-1631. The curse continues.
Undate : I managed to get may map to read 95 kpa with key on. Used 195 linear 7 offset.
It barely runs now. It will fire a die or chug along for a few seconds then die. Also tried changing base idle airflow from 6 to 12 . did not help. Lap top going dead so had to quit. Going back to where I was because it won't run long enough to run a scan.
The way it runs I would say it's super rich at idle and lean off idle.
I'm going back to my original pre 2bar tune.

[braindead44]

Thanks for your help. I know it has to be a PIA to deal ignorant people like me on a regular basis. Here is another dumb question. When looking at my VE table are the values a percentage change in air mass? In other words if the numbers are lower is the mixture richer?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

dont look at the ve table in terms of fuel because its technically an airflow table.

VE is short for volumetric efficiency as you likely already know. This is a term related to pumps to put a 3d name to their flow efficiency. since an engine is an air pump this is an airflow model table.

as the numbers go up (increase +) then you are telling the ecu that the motor is moving more air and as a result it commands more fuel.
as the numbers go down (decrease -) then you are telling the ecu that the motor is less efficient and moving less air. As a result it commands less fuel.
the values themselves are meaningless to us as they dont represent any physical inputs. They are there as random values which can be modified to provide a numerical map of the engine efficiency and it just so happens that we can also make changes in percent to these values which is why everyone runs trim error in percent or afr/lambda error in percent to make adjustments.

fixing the ve table is a big deal...it sets the airflow model for the engine which is used for tons of other ecu functions.

[braindead44]

I'm using decaped injectors and even with the min. inj. pulse set as low as it can go I'm still getting too much fuel at idle. I have very low numbers in my ve at idle but still getting a ton of fuel. It is too rich at idle but seems lean off idle. I'm trying not to have to drill my throttle plate. I've tried adding to my base idle a/f but it doesn't help. I've looked at other ve tables of similar builds with the same cam and injectors ,ect and they look radically different from mine. I'll try to paste a copy here.
ve table.gif

[braindead44]

Finally I think I might be moving in the right direction. I went back to my stock ve and spark tables and it actually ran well enough to get it up to temp. Takes the throttle now. I had to keep on the throttle a little at first but after it got a little heat in it , it ran much better. My wb seems to be working now and AFR is running from 12.7 to 13.5 so it needs some work. I copied a ve from a similar tune but it was way off for my combo . Thanks for the help everyone. I still have problems posting files. I guess i'll figure it out sooner or later.

[DrLoch]

That was the right thing to do. Where did those VE numbers you posted come from? For testing purposes I'd try a different set of injectors with known good values. BTW, you are learning, we were all learning at one point. We are still learning that's why we come to boards like this. Have you solved your MAP sensor error?

[braindead44]

That was the right thing to do. Where did those VE numbers you posted come from? For testing purposes I'd try a different set of injectors with known good values. BTW, you are learning, we were all learning at one point. We are still learning that's why we come to boards like this. Have you solved your MAP sensor error?

I got the Ve numbers from a tune on sloppy mechanics . It was a build similar to mine but was way off . I can't believe it ran. The map sensor seems OK now. The truck is running much better now so I think if l'm careful I should be able to clean the tune enough to drive It .I don't intend to run any boost till I'm sure I have a safe tune. I'm not new to turbocharging.I built a turbo Kawasaki back in the 80s.It was a beast and I still have it but I'm getting to old to ride it.lol Thanks for the response

[cobaltssoverbooster]

sloppy tunes are typically scaled. this means the table doesnt actually equate to the correct axis value when you compare it to your non-scaled files. its happened to others before.
as loch stated, going back to stock settings was the correct thing to do.

[[email protected]]

Hi guys. I'm new to this so have mercy on me. I'm an old dog trying to learn new tricks and I'm thinking maybe I should have stuck to carbs and points distributors.
My build is a 2001 s10 with 2000 LM7 ,billet 78/75 vs racing turbo ,sloppy stage 2 cam ,pac1218 springs ,decapped inj. and walbro 450. I've managed to get it to start and idle but it's super rich. My wb reads lean ,but my nose says otherwise. I believe the gage is installed correctly but I think the o2 sensor is bad. I contacted AEM and they seemed to agree with me , but told me there is no warranty on the sensor. It has about 15 mins run time on it and hasn't worked correctly since it was installed. They also told me that running too rich can ruin the sensor. I'm going to try a new sensor soon as I can, but I wonder if someone could look at my log file and see if you can spot the problem.

2bar running rich.hptcorrected inj flow rate from 70 to 80.hpl

Once you get rich enough to cause a missfire, you will read lean because the wideband picks up the unburnt oxygen. If you want to see this result, disconect a plug wire and watch the wideband or oxygen sensor. you will read lean.