4L60e issues,...bout to take a 50cal and give er the whole 9 yards

[Hutchinson]

Come-on' now fellars,...I didn't mean to stir up trouble,....I'm simply trying to learn as much of the ins-and-outs as I possibly can (string it all together in my own head,.... which is tough for my older ass sometimes),...and maybe someone in the future can see the issues with the old trans/how it was tested/and initial new trans startup observations with subsequent dumb questions,.... with all y'all's expertise on "how-to/answers". I'm definitely not a tuner,...only been at it for 6 months, yet, you guys have taught me tons in a short period of time. Big thanks to all you guys.

Yes I'm guilty of being analytical,...I'm a Senior Project Manager that's overall responsible for new Power Station Construction, Commissioning (Startup), Validation Testing and Turnover to end Client,...thus, I guess my mind works that way,....wanna know all the fine details,... I don't have a college education,...I worked my way, up through the field, to the most senior level,....And yes, you can put FLT's transmissions in a Space Shuttle,...they are that good. I must say, I got a chuckle when I read that one.

JasonB, you've helped me in the past bud, and I respect your experience (as well as all you guys). I know you didn't read the entire post (I know it's long bud), but,....the past few day's nut is - I finally got the new FLT trans installed,...and on the first two test drives, the internal trans clutches felt like they weren't grabbing as hard as "I thought" they should be.
Shifts fine, and right on time per my shift MPH/TPS tables,....and TCC locks perfectly on time too (hard). Yet seems like my engine rpm's (as truck goes up through each gear) doesn't reflect the "grab-er-and-growl" the rear end should be layin-down'. I know it's not the FLT trans, I can assure people of that,... thus, I started looking at the tune/adjustments,...and subsequently (and apparently, asking dumb) questions.
Thanks for pointing me towards the 02 Silverado pressure reviews,...I'll look into that tonight. And, Yes Sir, I put a new torque converter in it (per Chuck - from Precision of New Hampton - with an Allison hub and weld reinforced - stock stall speed). I also disabled the old (yet still new) radiator cooler and removed the extra stock cooler, with all the lines,... and then installed a new 40k Tru-Cool cooler with all new -6AN lines/fittings,...because I knew the old (yet still new) trans had contaminated the entire cooling system with clutch/metal debris.
I hear you on the 100 miles before I adjust anything,...that was my plans. But, figured I'd ask the "holding power" question above, before I started scorching new clutches,...in case it was something stupid I'd done,...and someone could say, "hey Newbie, you got this wrong!",.... which wouldn't surprise me.

Apologies again guys,... for being perhaps overly cautious with this,...it's not the money,.... it's the "man, I don't want to go through changing this trans again,...already did it twice,...a third time, and I'd be ready to bite 10" I-beams in half!!!" It's a hot mofo down here in Florida right now, and I'm doing this work in my driveway with no shade,.....I know, I know,...gotta be tough when your dumb (like me). Apologies again guys.

On another note,..something interesting I found today though,.... My "Normal Shift" table 2D chart looked a little off,...meaning, the 3->2 downshift curve should be above the 1->2 upshift curve. And the 4->3 downshift curve should be above the 2->3 upshift curve,...... (I know this ain't got nothin to do with the above). Did y'all know you can move the dots on the curve of the 2D graph, and it'll change the chart numbers above??? I found this by accident today, and thought, man that's fairly cool. Anyway, I moved the dot/curves around so both downshift curves are now right,....didn't have to move them much, just a few mph adjustment. Now my BluCats inspired 2D shift point chart looks awesome. I'll upload this simple adjustment tomorrow and see how she acts.

[Hutchinson]

Something to note on 4L60e shift curves,....don't know if it's same for 80e's.

Part throttle shift table relationships (looking at shift curves in 2D):

1->2 curve should be above 2->1 curve;
2->3 curve should be above 3->2 curve;
3->4 curve should be above 4->3 curve;

Additional relationships:
3->2 curve should be above 1->2 curve
4->3 curve should be above 2->3 curve

This can be summarized as: the curves cannot cross anywhere;....if they cross anywhere, then you may not be able to predict what gear the PCM selects when the operating point hits the cross.

I found this on another forum (from a reputable "moderator type" person) and thought it would be good to put on here for HPTuners people to utilize. I've also checked a couple stock tunes and the above is in-line with those stock curves.

[Fast4.7]

I would NEVER Zero out the torque management or shift time tables on a 4L60E. In fact I don't even do it on my 4L85E. The little L31 cause too much clutch slip for me during a heavy throttle upshift if it is. My 85E has a Transgo HD2 installed in it. It will bark the tires of an Express van 1-2 anywhere over 1/2 throttle.

With a 4L60/65/70E I generally run 40% torque reduction in every gear at and above 300 ft/lbs and 25% everywhere under that. Henerally speaking I run shift times of 0.250 sec up to 300 ft/lb and 0.300 above that. I flat line the upshift line pressure above 300 ft/lbs as well to 90. I do the lighter throttle stuff up to about 240 ft/lbs by feel. Too much pressure and you will get a jolt. Too little and the shift will be slow, delayed and soft. I would look at the torque management torque limits for limiting the engines output. My 0411 started pulling timing after my Tri-Y headers went on. It was factory limited to 300 ft/lbs in the tune. Bumped the limit up to 640 ft/lbs and it ran like a completely different engine.

[Jason B]

I've been running a home built 4L60E with no TM and zero'd time tables for 9 years.
Runs 11.8 in the 1/4 and shifts smooth as butter.Attachment 71716

Also has the TransGo "firm third" mod.

[Oleblu]

I'm gonna agree with Jason on this one. my bone ass stock 4l65e in my 07 Tahoe has been running with ZERO torque management for a little over 4 years and 60,000 miles. So far 167,000 total miles on it. And no clutch slippage here yet. I have mine setup to shift pretty hard, just before i feel like its per say jolting. me and the wife like a very positive firm feel to it. Probably a little to aggressive for most any other persons wives tahoe. Then again i don't have the usual whiny high maintenance wife though as most seem to have lol.

[Fast4.7]

You guys must just be lucky or you don't drive all that hard.

1997 5.7 Express 1500 cooked one in 38K. That one had a 3.73 G80 and would bark the tires going into 2nd on the stock tune. Put a slightly built up 4L65E dead in 40K.

[Jason B]

You guys must just be lucky or you don't drive all that hard.

1997 5.7 Express 1500 cooked one in 38K. That one had a 3.73 G80 and would bark the tires going into 2nd on the stock tune. Put a slightly built up 4L65E dead in 40K.

Or we don't ALSO screw with the force motor table, go freaking nuts with the pressure modifiers, etc.
TM and shift time can be left stock and a trans can still be ruined by jacking the pressures way up.

[Oleblu]

I definitely don't abuse mine, but do drive it hard enough for the wife to give me the grouch face occasionally. Some small burnouts and I would say everytime I drive it, it probably sees wot 1-2 shift 3 or 4 times and wot 2-3 a couple times. never touched the force motor tables. My pressure modifiers are close to 0. with my pressure tables probably having 15 to 18 % added. I usually don't go that high on the trucks with the 60 and 65e but my Tahoe is every bit of 6100lbs with me the wife and both my boys. This is with the rear seats in and a little supplies or luggage. But then again it's a 5.3 not a 5.7 so the torque curve is drastically different from a 5.7. With a 5.7 shifting around 3000 all the time part throttle I know for fact it's making gobs more torque than any 5.3 ever could at that rpm. So I see both sides of this being somewhat correct.

[Hutchinson]

BWAAAhahahaha,...d'ol' grough face huh??? Man, I know exactly what you mean there,...seen that a few times. Gotta say, I ..chuckled out load when I read that,..wife was sitting next to me when I read it,...I didn't say nothin. Thanks for the chuckle Ol'Blue.

Again, thanks for the replies guys. I plan to keep everything close to stock for at least the first (easy driving) 150 miles or so, then start adjusting per y'all's recommendations. Right now, I haven't adjusted any pressure or time related items (the trans has a shift kit/boost valve, thus should be good for the first 150 mile break in). I'll only adjust a couple obvious things (like shift MPH tables/TCC tables, etc) between the 150-500 mile mark,....then start adjusting times/pressures after that (if only truly needed - I'd like to keep them close to stock if I can),..... I'm 65% leaning on the longevity side of trans operation, rather than the remaining 35% haul tater, smokin 35x12.50 BFG's off the truck (but, believe me,.... that'll definitely be happenin',...just to keep carbon buildup blown out And,...instigate a few grough faces here and there when I get the need ).

Only things I've done to date is:
On Transmission side of tune
- lowered torque reduction table 50%
- lowered abuse mod table 50% (to correspond with TM table reduction above)
- used BluCats software to readjust my normal shift tables (and copy/pasted same to the cruise, hot and performance tables). BluCats also readjusted my TCC lock/unlock tables. I hand massaged this table a bit too,...by maxing the upper TPS areas to match my 82% full throttle enable.
- From BluCats, it had my downshift curves crossing (per 7-8 posts above) thus I hand-adjusted those and copy/pasted those changes to the other shift tables (so they'd all 4 match)
- Adjusted TCC Duty Cycle max/min tables to 100/90 respectively (I don't mind feeling the extra TCC bump)
- Adjusted all 3 Full Throttle Shift RPM tables down to 5,000 rpm (don't need high rpm's in a 4x4,... along with the HT383e's flat torque curve,.. furthers no need)
- Adjusted Full Throttle Enable/Disable down to 82% and 78% respectively. It was set stock at 94 and 88%.

On Engine side of tune (Torque Management>General tab)
- TM vs RPM table, stock had zero's across entire table, I changed this to 640lb/ft across the board
- Torque Limit (Max Torque) was 300 stock, I upped it to 640lb/ft (which is max)
- Trans input/output max (same section) I bumped both of these to max,....

Getting there,...now it's just time to run a bit and see how it acts.

[Fast4.7]

Or we don't ALSO screw with the force motor table, go freaking nuts with the pressure modifiers, etc.
TM and shift time can be left stock and a trans can still be ruined by jacking the pressures way up.

I dpn't really jack with the line pressure settings all that much. Keep in mind maximum line pressure is controlled mechanically. I do up the pressure enough to make sure the engagement is not slippery but the first 60E died on the stock tune.

[Jason B]

I dpn't really jack with the line pressure settings all that much. Keep in mind maximum line pressure is controlled mechanically. I do up the pressure enough to make sure the engagement is not slippery but the first 60E died on the stock tune.

What died on it?

[Oleblu]

Also curious what happend to these trans. You Went through two trans in 68 thousand miles. I'm wondering why

[Jason B]

I dpn't really jack with the line pressure settings all that much. Keep in mind maximum line pressure is controlled mechanically. I do up the pressure enough to make sure the engagement is not slippery but the first 60E died on the stock tune.

Keep in mind it's possible to run max line pressure (limited mechanically) at lower speeds.

And I did say I build my own transmissions. I still wonder.....how did the 700R4's/4l60's and turbo 350's last without torque management? hmmm. You broke parts and then upgraded those parts. Thats what I do, I upgrade the parts that commonly break before they break. And run no TM. And if I have a broken 4L60E I find out whats broken before I replace or rebuild.

What do other people do....they get their mechanic to put a stage 3 in (whatever that means).
Those people never know what happened.

This is what I do as a hobby, here's what I just did sunday and Monday.
I bought a core for $50 Sunday. First found the pan full of metal. Tore it down to look for the source and found no metal missing in the trans.
So then I cut the converter open, found the problem. Know what the problem was? Metal from the converter causing shift valves to bind up.

So, you have a transmission that won't shift automatically but shifts fine manually. Who would ever think it was the torque converter....seen people on forums put in new electronics "because thats what makes it shift"

[Oleblu]

OK so we have derailed your thread Hutchinson we should get it back on track. but I must ask first, Jason how do you open up the converter without using plasma cutter torch or die grinders. All of those will most certainly cause metal shavings chunks and slag. I'm genuinely interested in how you make such a clean separation of the two halves of these converters.

[Jason B]

OK so we have derailed your thread Hutchinson we should get it back on track. but I must ask first, Jason how do you open up the converter without using plasma cutter torch or die grinders. All of those will most certainly cause metal shavings chunks and slag. I'm genuinely interested in how you make such a clean separation of the two halves of these converters.

a 4 1/2" grinder with a cutoff wheel. I think I know where you're going with this right? You're going to say the grinder put all the metal in the converter and in the transmission that was 50 feet away?

The converter weld joint overlaps, meaning the weld bead can be cut through without penetrating the converter.


And last of all do you not see the picture of the torque converter clutch? The friction material is gone and it has been applying metal to metal.Attachment 71801


This is a converter I cut open several years ago, see it's nice friction material thats absent from the picture above? Attachment 71799


And heres that same converter, see the nice smooth apply area?
(and absence of grinding dust) Attachment 71798


And notice how this one I just cut open goes into the back half about 1/4 inch before the weld. It was cut open without breaking through. Attachment 71800



And yes the intention was to throw these in the scrap pile when I was done. There used to be a local converter builder who would put one on a lathe and remove only the weld, then rebuild. The green one might be reuseable if it was something very hard to find and the front cover was machined flat and smooth, but these are a dime a dozen. A rebuild shop would scrap the front cover anyway.

So back to your question. Why do you ask?

[Oleblu]

Easy killer lol. I wasnt attacking you, I had no doubts about your findings before cutting the converter open. I could clearly tell the converter had failed, but was curious of your methods. As stated above I have only heard of them opened up on the lathe. I have never personally opened one up. Thanks for going into a little more detail for me. Like I said before I was merely curious of your methods. and if you would be trying to rebuild or repair converters at home raising the respect bar even higher lol. I typed all this on my phone so forgive my shitty Grammer and typo's

[Hutchinson]

Thanks guys. I think it's good we see examples of "what" went wrong in a transmission, and subsequently how various tune setting could have been "why". It'll help future readers make decisions on how they adjust their settings,....and what could happen as a result,....thus making them wiser before they make such decisions.

As a result of you guys recent posts, something "dinged" in my head,.....I went into my tune and looked at the engine side of TM to see what my "local dyno tuner guy" had done,....he'd adjusted all the engine side TM settings to correspond with zeroing out all the TM on the transmission side of tune.
Over the past month, I had readjusted the transmission side TM tables (from zero back up to 50%TM) to air on the side of caution with this newly installed trans/break-in period,...yet, I had not looked at TM on the engine side. After reviewing the settings on the engine side,..I saw nothing that I'd need to change,...I left it all maxed out.

JasonB, in case I need it in the future (and others know),....from above, "you can run max line pressure (limited mechanically) at lower speeds". How do we do that? I'm imagining it's through the Force Motor Current table (yet, probably wrong)?

Right now, I'd like to see more internal trans clutch "holding power"/main line pressure on my line pressure gauge,.....without going overboard. My TCC clutch kicks in and man, it has the holding power (it's a new torque converter with Allison hub),.....just wish I had that same "locked up feeling" from my internal trans clutches while running up through the rpm's of each gear (at low throttle).
Admittedly, because I'm still breaking in this new trans, I haven't romped on this truck yet to get up into the lower amperage setting (subsequent higher line pressures) of the Force Motor Current table,..to see how the internal trans clutches are holding/feel.
I've been driving like Ms Daisy,...since I don't have confidence in how the internal clutches "feel"/not locking up hard enough for me at lower speeds,...just feeeeeels like they're slipping. I know the trans is ok,...it's just a feeling/butt-dyno thing to me right now.
Example, my wife's newer Jeep Grand Cherokee doesn't feel like my new trans as it goes up through the rpm's of each gear at low throttle,...her Jeep feels solid. My truck however, doesn't. Thus, the reason I asked the "how do we do that" above. You guys reckon I should up my Force Motor Current table 10% across the board and see how it "feels"? Will this provide me more internal trans clutch "holding power" and help the slip "feel".

Man, I wish I could explain "how it feels" better. The trans slip setting (to throw a code) is set as stock at 800rpm, and I don't see my TCC slip exceeding this 800 on the Scanner readings (I think max I've seen is ~650), and my PCM doesn't throw the slip code. But, man,...it sure doesn't "feel" like it should. Kinda hard to put into words. Can you guys look at my scan file I attached above and see whatcha think?

[Jason B]

Easy killer lol. I wasnt attacking you, I had no doubts about your findings before cutting the converter open. I could clearly tell the converter had failed, but was curious of your methods. As stated above I have only heard of them opened up on the lathe. I have never personally opened one up. Thanks for going into a little more detail for me. Like I said before I was merely curious of your methods. and if you would be trying to rebuild or repair converters at home raising the respect bar even higher lol. I typed all this on my phone so forgive my shitty Grammer and typo's

Well....when you do something like cut open a converter people think all kinds of things, I didn't know.
Still getting to know people on here.

Now, back to Hutchinson? I wonder how he's coming along.

[Jason B]

JasonB, in case I need it in the future (and others know),....from above, "you can run max line pressure (limited mechanically) at lower speeds". How do we do that? I'm imagining it's through the Force Motor Current table (yet, probably wrong)?

I made the mistake long ago with my '02 camaro ss. I copied and pasted the Base Shift Pressure vs Torque vs Gear performance table to the normal table. On that car the performance table is max pressure, it felt like something was going to break at each shift.

Right now, I'd like to see more internal trans clutch "holding power"/main line pressure on my line pressure gauge,.....without going overboard. My TCC clutch kicks in and man, it has the holding power (it's a new torque converter with Allison hub),.....just wish I had that same "locked up feeling" from my internal trans clutches while running up through the rpm's of each gear (at low throttle).
Admittedly, because I'm still breaking in this new trans, I haven't romped on this truck yet to get up into the lower amperage setting (subsequent higher line pressures) of the Force Motor Current table,..to see how the internal trans clutches are holding/feel.
I've been driving like Ms Daisy,...since I don't have confidence in how the internal clutches "feel"/not locking up hard enough for me at lower speeds,...just feeeeeels like they're slipping. I know the trans is ok,...it's just a feeling/butt-dyno thing to me right now.
Example, my wife's newer Jeep Grand Cherokee doesn't feel like my new trans as it goes up through the rpm's of each gear at low throttle,...her Jeep feels solid. My truck however, doesn't. Thus, the reason I asked the "how do we do that" above. You guys reckon I should up my Force Motor Current table 10% across the board and see how it "feels"? Will this provide me more internal trans clutch "holding power" and help the slip "feel".

Man, I wish I could explain "how it feels" better. The trans slip setting (to throw a code) is set as stock at 800rpm, and I don't see my TCC slip exceeding this 800 on the Scanner readings (I think max I've seen is ~650), and my PCM doesn't throw the slip code. But, man,...it sure doesn't "feel" like it should. Kinda hard to put into words. Can you guys look at my scan file I attached above and see whatcha think?

Does that torque converter have damper springs in the clutch? It probably does. I've seen those in a million pieces from the tcc locking up too hard. You want the tcc to lock up under cruise like when the engine rpm and transmission input shaft rpm are not far off, like under 1000 rpm difference. I set my tcc apply up so it's not as firm as any transmission upshift. I even have solid tcc clutches in my two camaros, no damper springs. Still don't want those locking up hard.

And I'll say it again, don't screw with the force motor table.

Use all the transmission pressure settings from the closest vehicle to what you have. I suggested before a 2002 silverado.
Then adjust your shift feel with the base shift pressure vs torque vs gear. Zero out the desired shift time vs torque tables (they don't do anything anyway)
Zero out the Upshift Pressure Multiplier vs Trans Temp vs Gear table. Make slight changes in the 1->2, 2->3, 3->4 Upshift Pressure Modifier vs Trans Temp vs Torque tables to fine tune.

The main table to change your shift feel is the (Normal) Base Shift Pressure vs Torque vs Gear table.
The Steady State Adapt should already be disabled, leave it disabled.
The TCC shift lock should be disabled.
The TCC apply should be set to engage like I explained above, but leave the Cruise and Hot tables stock.
TCC duty cycle should be maxed out at 90 for both tables, unless you feel it harder than a shift.
This is a slightly modified 2002 silverado tune file I used. If you copy and paste the transmission and tcc pressures and pressure related tables and your shifts are still soft, either adjust the (Normal) Base Shift Pressure vs Torque vs Gear table or the trans has problems.

Attachment 71807

I'm assuming you're using the FLT transmission now right? do you have any specs on it? Specifically the boost valve size and (probably not) the feed hole sizes in the separator plate.

Honestly I stopped reading when I saw that you were trying to do something with the force motor table many pages back.

[Jason B]

One thing I forgot.
Set up your scanner to read Delivered Trans Torque.
This way you have an idea were to adjust the (Normal) Base Shift Pressure vs Torque vs Gear table.