Like the topic says: I realized this tune uses secondary spark table. There is MAF available and in use. There are no fault codes present. What could be the reason? The tune and a log attached. (EDIT: In this file I put MAF fail Hz to 1 but in real life its 14 000 Hz).
Last edited by Tapi; 05-25-2017 at 07:04 AM.
Your MAF Frequency High Fail setting is 1 hz, this will fail the maf, you should have a setting of like 13500 hz . It will fail the MAF on the second error and put you into Speed Density which will revert to the lo Octane Advance table and Secondary VE if implemented in your OS.
Ed M
2004 Vette Coupe, LS2, MN6, Vararam, ARH/CATs, Ti's, 4:10, Trickflow 215, 30# SVO, Vette Doctors Cam, Fast 90/90, DD McLeod, DTE Brace, Hurst shifter, Bilsteins etc. 480/430
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Sorry.. I attached wrong tune file! This file I especially put the MAF fail Hz to 1 to see if it makes any difference at low rpm cruising shudder. The real number I have there is 14 000 Hz.
woa. You need to spend some time with your ve and secondary ve table..
Ve on either axis should start at a low point get higher as rpm and/or kpa climb and taper off just before peak output. Ve on any axis, row, or colum should never go up and down and up and back down. This is not how engines perform. You should smooth the primary ve table and copy the rows that apply over to the secondary ve table. And then after making further changes to the primary ve table you should again update the secondary ve table. When done they should match and they should be smooth.
And we need more information about your secondary spark table problem. Do you mean you are using the low octane table? or can you be more specific about that?
You need the VE to look less like a relief map of Himalayas... For the spark, do you mean the Low Octane table or the Idle Spark Advance Table? For the Low Octane table, as Ed said, if it has a MAF fail, it will use the low table..
I <suspect> you mean the Idle Spark table, and if so, it'll be because you set the parameters to do that..;
Capture.JPG
This says use the idle table under 400kph... I guess you are mostly under 400...
99 TA, Texas Speed LS376, PRC heads, 233/239 cam, Fast 92mm, 95mm TB, card style MAF, Tick TR6060, Strange 4.11 12 bolt axle & clutchpack diff, Strano springs/dampers, Vette 18" wheels, Vette disks, CTS-V calipers, 16lb flywheel, long tube headers, no cats.
I will smoothen the VE the minute you say it causes the car to use only low octane spark advance table
The car does not use high octane spark advance table at all even though there is no MAF fail present. I will write it again here: The tune I attached was mistakenly with MAF fail Hz=1 but that was my mistake which I didn't correct by attaching the correct tune because I already got one reply in which I noticed my mistake.
It (smoothing VE) of course does not cause/cure that, but various errors do, including MAF setting as mentioned, but I don't think it is the only thing to cause it to revert to the low table.
I don't have a list, lol, but I <imagine> that almost any DTC that might cause engine damage due to incorrect fueling or timing is likely to cause it to use the low table. I assume you have not changed any DTC values??
BTW you do know that for the knock learn to work, you must remain above 65kpa (MAP) (Spark >> Retard >> Knock Learn). If you don't, it will never move from 0 (low table). And you must remain above 65kpa for a considerable time...
If you want to test this, just set the knock learn min MAP to something that you can stay above easily, then go for a drive and watch that Knock Learn Factor in scanner... when its at 1, you're in High table...
Last edited by dermotw; 05-27-2017 at 09:59 AM.
99 TA, Texas Speed LS376, PRC heads, 233/239 cam, Fast 92mm, 95mm TB, card style MAF, Tick TR6060, Strange 4.11 12 bolt axle & clutchpack diff, Strano springs/dampers, Vette 18" wheels, Vette disks, CTS-V calipers, 16lb flywheel, long tube headers, no cats.
The car uses low octane tables because fuels are crappy, have lots of additives, and sit in wet tanks in the ground. The tuning school teaches when tuning for performance and you know that high test is all you are going to use then copy the high octane table over to the low octane table and it will force it to always use that map. And don't use the cheap gas.Originally Posted by Tapi
I will smoothen the VE the minute you say it causes the car to use only low octane spark advance table
The car does not use high octane spark advance table at all even though there is no MAF fail present. I will write it again here: The tune I attached was mistakenly with MAF fail Hz=1 but that was my mistake which I didn't correct by attaching the correct tune because I already got one reply in which I noticed my mistake.
Last edited by AutoWiz; 05-27-2017 at 10:10 AM.
There are just no DTC:s shown. I have disabled DTC:s that relate to air pump (removed) and rear oxygen sensors (removed).
For knock learn I use stock values.
That 400 kph limit which was mentioned, is also stock. If it affects, then all these cars would use only low octane table.
If this would be due to bad fuel, I would see at least some knock values but no, there just isn't any knock present. This car was dynoed with this low octane table and it gave the most power with it. Adding and decreasing spark just lowered power. The main spark table has few degrees more timing just for me to see that it's not in use (if they would be the same I wouldn't realize the problem. I would really like to have high octane and low octane tables to work as they should or i won't have any protection in the long run.
They will work, but you MUST exceed 65kpa for something like 20 minutes to get the knock learn to go to near 1. That means 20 mins at over 80kph, probably over 120kph, if you keep that 65kpa value... this is a performance car, lol.
In your log, you never exceeded about 40kpa or so in general driving.... a "burst" won't do it.
In my ECU at least, there's no shortcut for this, although a lot of garbage is sometimes written about it. If it reverts to a learn factor of 0, then ONLY sustained driving with more than 65kpa will cause it to shift progressively over time to 1. Flashing won't do it, nor will anything else.
In a country like Finland, it may well make sense to move it lower. It only speeds up the learn process, it does not affect the KR itself... as I said, test it, set it a bit above whatever it idles at and drive...
Last edited by dermotw; 05-27-2017 at 10:31 AM.
99 TA, Texas Speed LS376, PRC heads, 233/239 cam, Fast 92mm, 95mm TB, card style MAF, Tick TR6060, Strange 4.11 12 bolt axle & clutchpack diff, Strano springs/dampers, Vette 18" wheels, Vette disks, CTS-V calipers, 16lb flywheel, long tube headers, no cats.
Like mentioned earlier just copy the Primary Table and paste into the Secondary Table and continue smoothing out your VE Table
Hmm. Is that really why?
I don't think the ecu knows where the fuel comes from.
Why no ben it uses logic for that. But that logic is designed around the ecm being able to determine the grade of fuel. So different grades of fuel will naturally impact this decision the ecm makes. And like I said the fuels we are using at the average pump suck. Now here's the million dollar question, Does this person need a drawn out theory to confuse what he is trying to accomplish? Or to be led to go look at knock sensor settings? no. Rather he should be offered relevant information on how to impact and change what he is asking about. And because there are other problems with his tune right now, we just need to keep it simple so we can see this person to a happy ending rather than frustration because we all can't be as smart as you with all your in depth theory and analysis that takes us so far away from the specific goals someone is looking to achieve. Who here knows about K.I.S.S.? I guess here it is the difference of theory and practice.
Even if you change settings somewhere to get the ecm to recognize the fuel grade you are using that is only good so long as you are using that gas from that gas station. because fuel quality is an extreme variable from gas station to gas station. If he is worried about these tables impacting his tune the correct thing to do is to use one type of fuel and copy the timing tables. because maybe he will follow your theories and ideas and get his stuff to work on high octane tables until he stops at the gas station that has been slow and had its fuel sitting in the ground in old tanks for a while.
Mate, this is a technical forum. I would suggest your way of keeping it simple in this case actually confuses the issue.
I assume you know how the ecu actually chooses what table to use, and where the fuel comes from isnt part of that decision.
Also, you will notice I have not posted any theories or ideas for him to follow. I just don't like your somewhat bizarre description as to why am ecu uses the low octane table.
I am so sorry if my descriptions seem to confuse you. Obviously you have not seen taken or attended the tuning the right way course. Thankfully I have and if it pleases you, I can begin to link all of my suggestions to the pages of this course that I took them from. For example..
we good mate? You can have all this knowledge I possess. it is easy. There is a price on it. And you can get it here: https://www.hptuners.com/order.php
On this side of the purchase it is a lot. But I assure you once all of that knowledge is out of the books and cds and in your head and vehicle's tune, you will quickly realize it was a very smart investment.
Last edited by AutoWiz; 05-27-2017 at 05:47 PM.
I am so sorry if my descriptions seem to confuse you. Obviously you have not seen taken or attended the tuning the right way course. Thankfully I have and if it pleases you, I can begin to link all of my suggestions to the pages of this course that I took them from. For example..
we good mate? You can have all this knowledge I possess. it is easy. There is a price on it. And you can get it here: https://www.hptuners.com/order.php
On this side of the purchase it is a lot. But I assure you once all of that knowledge is out of the books and cds and in your head and vehicle's tune, you will quickly realize it was a very smart investment.
What?
Are you unable to comprehend simple statements?
It's clear that you have done some courses, you bang on about that all the time,
What in that image you posted relates to what I have said? Or proves me wrong?
You said the ecu uses the low octane table due to bad gas. That's not really correct is it? You could be running race fuel, with a shit tune that knocks, and then it would use the low octane table with race fuel wouldn't it?
Of course you can copy the high to the low table. Never said you couldn't. But if an ecu is running the low table, what effect does copying the high to the low table achieve? Too much timing, as, funnily enough most high tables have more timing in them.
Sorry I don't have a photo of me standing near a car, or a snippet of some course to post to match your standard.
It is easy posting pictures. And if you don't mind the ads photobucket and imageshack have free account options. As far as talking about the courses, just because they are sold on this website and that is what this website is all about, I guess we should call that "word of mouth advertising" and maybe the moderaters should all see that for the golden nugget it really is because I am quite sure Internet Brands and HPTuners do. I'm good for business here. I got good because of my continued investment in HPTuners. And I am here to brag and sing their praises and offer assistance wherever I can and for free. You'd think i'd receive a warmer welcome than what I have, but that is ok. I love you guys. Especially now that I am officially an Advanced Tuner as per this forums strange take on what makes a tuner advance in levels.
Last edited by AutoWiz; 05-27-2017 at 06:41 PM.
Man you are good at trolling.
Not answering direct questions, inferring people are incapable of simple tasks, assuming that no one else has done any courses, putting words in others mouths etc.
When you get a chance, go back and read my posts with a clear head and try responding to them then.
I have only posted up my efforts to help on this forum. I have acted to defend my advice I have not tried to start problems, I am no troll. To this point I have not put anybody down despite the comments directed at me. And I have only bragged about hptuners products and haven't even mentioned my business' name. I have been very appropriate. So if you don't like the way things are going right now all I got to say is don't hate the player, Hate the game.
p.s. I have also offered up some very good advice, if I do say so myself. And I let go of you guys' desire to run n/a motors at 12.x:1 afr. I did that to come to your level. Because to me that is just downright wasteful.
p.p.s. And through our continued collective efforts I know we can see the Wiz to Senior Tuner status.
Last edited by AutoWiz; 05-27-2017 at 08:27 PM.
Didn't take my popcorns and soda ready for this thread, instead I made changes to the tune and with trials I'm still using low octane spark table.
I smoothed the VE table. I changed knock learn MAP limit lower. I scan knock learn factor, knock sensors and burst knock. There is no knock until you play agressively with throttle on/off and get some 0.1 degree knock in sight. I still can not see why this car is using lower spark.
The tune and log attached here.
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