Zone Values in VE on e38

[Maxspeed96ct]

g8 id105x best march 4 some wot stft all set.hpt


Just going through my tune originally done by someone else. Its maf only 1000 rpm up, id personally like to dial in the VE


When I made some changes I noticed it said some zones where missing, then I compared to a stock tune and noticed this was true.

My questions :

Why would someone change these in a the first place?

What else is effected if I change these zone numbers back to stock ?

What's the difference between open and closed VE? Dod is deleted on the car




mine-


stock -

[Maxspeed96ct]

Bump anyone ?

Would the fact that it was tuned by efi logics initially have anything to do with it ?

[SultanHassanMasTuning]

i would compare to stock OS and see your boundaries

[sillycon]

The Open/Closed maps relate to the different states of variable length runner intake manifolds.

You don't specify what vehicle you have, but on the Z06 only the non-DoD "Open" table is used by the ECM. The "Closed" table is ignored entirely as the car doesn't have a variable length intake setup. Unless your vehicle has a variable length runner intake setup, it's a good bet that you also will only need to fuss with the "Open" table.

Edit: Unfortunately, I have zero knowledge of the "Zones" or what they're for. Hopefully someone else will chime in and enlighten us.

[Maxspeed96ct]

i would compare to stock OS and see your boundaries

That's what's posted in the pics above. Mine vs a stock file.

I'd like to copy the zone values from the stock file but I'm curious what else will be effected ?

It looks like the entire bottom zones are missing, the high kpa area.
my thought is it's cause it was tuned by efi live.

The car is also boosted if that makes any difference, tune Has maf enabled above 1000rpm

[sillycon]

I found a thread with a good detailed discussion of the VVE zones and such.

https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...E38-E67-ECM-s/

Specifically the posts by Chris@HPT on pages 1 and 4, but the entire thread is a fantastic read.

If you were to switch away from basically being a MAF-only tune, and to know if you "need" zones 5, 11, 17, 23, 29 to be present in order to do so, you'd need to look in your zone config tables (Dynamic Airflow Zone Mapping, Dynamic Airflow Zone RPM Boundaries, and Dynamic Airflow Zone MAP Boundaries) to know if the ECU is going to be looking for those zones or not.

As it sits (based on your description) the car is only using SD at idle, so the missing zones may not be a huge issue after all.

If you were to remap your zones with those from a stock calibration but with your current coefficient numbers, it's likely going to make a mess of your trims/tune.

[GHuggins]

Guys, the zones are still there - this is what sultan was referring to - the tune was just changed from 1 bar to 2 bar which shifted the boundaries... Granted the boundaries could have been setup better, but to correctly see things click on the map axis and select the row in the middle or two bar...

[GHuggins]

VE table does appear to need to be dialed in for your boosted application - up to you as to whether or not to change the boundaries to better suite your application...

[sillycon]

the tune was just changed from 1 bar to 2 bar which shifted the boundaries [...] to correctly see things click on the map axis and select the row in the middle or two bar...

Good point; I wasn't thinking about that when I looked at the screen cap he'd posted above!

[rio95]

Kind of unrelated, but shouldn't you have changed your injector short pulse limit to 3.7 ms per the ID injector data?

I was comparing your injector settings to mine as I have the same injectors and also have an E38. Looks like our flowrate numbers are a LITTLE different too, but that's probably due to rounding. I found that when pasting the data in, the numbers change very slightly. Still don't understand why but I guess ours rounded a little differently from each other. Probably not enough to matter, but kind of annoying.

I'm not sure exactly what the flow rate mult vs flow, min injector pulse, and offset vs. inj temp tables do, but I see we have different values from each other. I don't see these in the ID data, so I'm guessing our stock numbers were just different to begin with?

[sillycon]

I found that when pasting the data in, the numbers change very slightly. Still don't understand why but I guess ours rounded a little differently from each other. Probably not enough to matter, but kind of annoying.

In "high level" terms, the numbers change because of how computers represent data. Sometimes a field is used in such a way in the ECM that the numbers entered in the field must always be divisible by some other specific number (maybe a 3, or maybe an 8 or 16, etc.) so whatever number you enter gets rounded to the next closest divisible number. Another reason why numbers can change around a bit is because of the way computers can store data; in many situations it's preferable (and acceptable) for a computer to only use an approximation of a number -- e.g. instead of using EXACTLY "1.0000000000000000000000" it can use "1.000001" or "1.000000002". As such, when you enter/store the information, even though you typed "1", the field storing "1" ends up storing "1.0001", but the next time you look at the field you might see "1.0001" or "1.0002" or "1.0000".

I'm not sure exactly what the flow rate mult vs flow, min injector pulse, and offset vs. inj temp tables do, but I see we have different values from each other. I don't see these in the ID data, so I'm guessing our stock numbers were just different to begin with?

"Min injector pulse" is the minimum pulse allowable for the injector. One use for this is for injectors which are non-linear at very low pulses; fuel modeling often assumes that injectors operate in a linear fashion (e.g. if it flows 1g of fuel at 1ms pulse, then it flows 2g at 2ms, 3 at 3ms, etc.). Unfortunately, for a lot of reasons that doesn't actually happen. Sometimes you end up with an injector that has a "U" shaped curve, so you can use the min pulse width to prevent the injector from ever going into the first half of the U shape and eliminate some very big headaches when trying to dial in a car at start, idle, and part throttle.

Flow rate mult[iple] vs flow (based on the name) sounds like another table meant to help better deal with the same "U" shape problem; I expect it's purpose is to help you model your injectors flow rate in those areas of non-linear behavior (e.g. at 1ms the injector flows 80% or 110% of what the linear model would predict). That said, this is only an educated guess on my part as to it's use.

Based on the name, Offset vs inj temp holds values which indicate the change in the injectors response to an "open and flow fuel!" command which is caused by changes injector temperature. The injectors "dead time" (the amount of time it takes to response to an "open up and let the fuel flow!" command) changes based on a lot of things; manifold pressure, fuel rail/line pressure, fuel viscosity, fuel temperature, injector temperature, battery voltage, etc. and this table will allow you to help "tune" the flow around variations based on the injector temperature (and to an extent fuel temp since that will tend to rise a bit with injector temp).

[rio95]

In "high level" terms, the numbers change because of how computers represent data. Sometimes a field is used in such a way in the ECM that the numbers entered in the field must always be divisible by some other specific number (maybe a 3, or maybe an 8 or 16, etc.) so whatever number you enter gets rounded to the next closest divisible number. Another reason why numbers can change around a bit is because of the way computers can store data; in many situations it's preferable (and acceptable) for a computer to only use an approximation of a number -- e.g. instead of using EXACTLY "1.0000000000000000000000" it can use "1.000001" or "1.000000002". As such, when you enter/store the information, even though you typed "1", the field storing "1" ends up storing "1.0001", but the next time you look at the field you might see "1.0001" or "1.0002" or "1.0000".



"Min injector pulse" is the minimum pulse allowable for the injector. One use for this is for injectors which are non-linear at very low pulses; fuel modeling often assumes that injectors operate in a linear fashion (e.g. if it flows 1g of fuel at 1ms pulse, then it flows 2g at 2ms, 3 at 3ms, etc.). Unfortunately, for a lot of reasons that doesn't actually happen. Sometimes you end up with an injector that has a "U" shaped curve, so you can use the min pulse width to prevent the injector from ever going into the first half of the U shape and eliminate some very big headaches when trying to dial in a car at start, idle, and part throttle.

Flow rate mult[iple] vs flow (based on the name) sounds like another table meant to help better deal with the same "U" shape problem; I expect it's purpose is to help you model your injectors flow rate in those areas of non-linear behavior (e.g. at 1ms the injector flows 80% or 110% of what the linear model would predict). That said, this is only an educated guess on my part as to it's use.

Based on the name, Offset vs inj temp holds values which indicate the change in the injectors response to an "open and flow fuel!" command which is caused by changes injector temperature. The injectors "dead time" (the amount of time it takes to response to an "open up and let the fuel flow!" command) changes based on a lot of things; manifold pressure, fuel rail/line pressure, fuel viscosity, fuel temperature, injector temperature, battery voltage, etc. and this table will allow you to help "tune" the flow around variations based on the injector temperature (and to an extent fuel temp since that will tend to rise a bit with injector temp).

That's a lot of good info! So when people import ID data do they leave the flow rate mult vs flow, min injector pulse, and offset vs. inj temp tables stock. Seems strange that one car would have different values for these than another car with the same ecm and injectors, but ID doesn't provide any data to paste into tables.

[realcanuk]

That's a lot of good info! So when people import ID data do they leave the flow rate mult vs flow, min injector pulse, and offset vs. inj temp tables stock. Seems strange that one car would have different values for these than another car with the same ecm and injectors, but ID doesn't provide any data to paste into tables.

ID provides the proper data, and they work great with whats provided. Why would anyone not use it ?

[sillycon]

Cant speak to ID, but FIC as an example provides only dead time data relating to battery voltage, nothing for temps (it may be available, but i never thought to ask as other EMSs ive used dont model inj. Temps).

So far as the varied values, my guess is that theyre different OS revisions, either with tune enhancements, changes in cals due to design revisions with no P/N change requiring an adjustment, or calibration simply being done by a different person.

Because of the "self learning" nature of modern ECMs, "handgrenade" accuracy is reasonably sufficient in an assembly line tune since the ECM can/will make the adjustments it feels are necessary anyway.

That doesnt mean that dialing in every table as well as possible wont result in driveability improvements though. They darn sure can - thats why some tuners will spend the hours it takes to custom dial everything in.

So far as table adjustments, everyone is going to do it a bit differently, just like nobody scrambles eggs quite the same way as you. I would enter whatever data I have and know to be correct, and tweak the rest as necessary to iron out any driveability problems.