Immediate Torque source PID

[32vape]

Anyone have a description on what the "immediate torque source" pid labels are? "Trans L", "Trans S", and "FETA". I am getting a big timing pull after the 1-2 and 3-4 shift at around 50% throttle and the immediate torque source reads FTEA during this low timing event.

[lt1z350]

Trans s is trans shifting I did figure that out as it was putting timing to -20 on the shifts on my 16 vsport. So I put 6 degrees at wot in the min timing table and that fixed that part. Now I get 6 degrees at the shift and no where near as lazy or such a boost drop.

[Robert C Morgillo]

lt1z350, How is this working for you? It is an interesting approach. In effect you are defeating the ECM's ability to control some of the torque. I would think the trans would slip badly during full power shifts. I also think you would need to up the shift pressures and timing of the shifts, there should be a significant amount of available torque without the massive shift retards. Let us know how it's going.

[MIKE91B]

This strategy works for the L83s as well. I would suggest you start out at 0* as min value and work up from there. I think I stopped at 5* as that seemed to work well. In my mind the idea is to allow for some torque reduction during shifts but not the falling on the face strategy the manufacturer uses. It definatley brings the down shifts from a roll to life. I did experiance some slamming with the min value above 10*. I created a histogram based on the min spark table to use as a do not exceed threshold. I ended up zeroing a large portion of the table and using 5 in high rpm and high load areas.

[lt1z350]

The reason I stared looking for things was I have no trans support as of yet. Hptuners isn't supporting the Asian tl80sn in this car so why I started playing with the engine side to try to help the trans.
The trans in this has adapted well it actually is hitting harder and shifting much faster setup this way even at 18-20 lbs of boost on this car. I build for a living so did some research on this particular trans and they rate it at 745 lbs of torque which is higher then any 8 speed GM makes for them self so would think they would have used it in other applications other then the v sport and cts 3.6 non turbo applications before switching some to the 8l45e on little motors. Twin turbo even in 2017 still uses this Asian. Just wish hp would start supporting it so could control more of the trans. But so far it is doing very good other then know it could be better if I could add some pressure and take away a little torque management for even better shifts.
I also do this on my ats/camaro 2.0t tunes and works wonders on them too with out getting crazy on the trans side of adjustments. I can't see why wouldn't work on any setup as most of these adapt somewhat till they hit the torque ceiling in the transmission tune. But for bolt on vehicles it makes them shift much better for sure.

[Chris@HPTuners]

Trans S = Transmission Short term tq mgt (things like shifting, generally using spark only)
Trans L = Transmission Long term tq mgt (other stuff like protections, spark and throttle)
FTEA = Fast Torque Exit is the end phase of any torque management, there are various options for immediate exit, ramp etc.

[lt1z350]

Also the fast torque exit is easy to remove. There is a table forcit just set the limit really high. I only ever see s on my car so far with everything I have done to it in the tune.
Chris, now that the Cadillac vsport is becoming more and more popular do you know if hp will consider doing support for the tcm? I even think if it's a money thing that if 4 credit were required after you release it I still believe people will pay. There are now over 475 people on the Facebook page just for the v sport and a large majority of them want to mod the car but still will not do it as no trans support so instead they pay for trifecta that's 888 for an engine / transmission tune. They say they did their own in house so will assume a much more capable company like this could come up with transmission support if they choose to do it. I would even go as far to get signatures if would help. I believe some support on the tl80sn will make a significant effect on the car. It does use a standard GM tcm and GM software for the Asian trans I do know that much and the fact it is rated for 745 lbs of torque more then any other GM transmission it is the last thing you have to worry about breaking of tunes correctly if went with larger turbos and pushed the 3.6 upwards of 700 hp. A lot of guys just waiting for someone to support this thing.

[Chris@HPTuners]

i will check into it, but at the moment a project like this would be difficult to prioritize within our current plans.

[lt1z350]

I completely understand that but car has been out since 2014 and the longer it goes with no support the more likely it will never get it. Trust me there is a lot of people waiting on this car to have trans support. I know people that don't even own hptuners that will buy it if this happens just so they can have someone do a remote tune on the car. Big bucks just sitting on the table when have 100s of people waiting for this to happen. So please I don't know how involved to do this but something started would be a huge help even if wasn't as much as other vehicles. Just torque management and pressures would be great. Thanks for at least listening Chris....

[tunerpro]

Unfortunately, we have to accept the reality that the Aisin 8sp was a one off-deal. For awhile, the CTS LFX RWD was using it, also, in addition to the VSport, but now even it's LGX/8L45. The VSport is the only GM application left using the Aisin 8sp, and that's only because the VSport is such a low production car that even GM doesn't think it's worth the engineering cost to switch it over to the 8L90 before they end production of it. That's cool there's 100s of people that might buy licenses for this car, but I'd suspect the hpt guys are thinking about where they can find 100000s of people to buy licenses...

[lt1z350]

I guess at some point when everything has gone electric and nothing new to come up with the only money left to be made will be going back and doing cars that were not done. 2020 camaro they are saying will be a hybrid 400 plus hp 2.0 with electric drive. At some point transmissions speeds will hit a wall 10 most likely being it so no more time spent developing the latest and greatest. This whole industry is about to be at a peak for what's new over next 5 years I believe anyway. A car with no transmission electric motors and every wheel can destroy just about any gas engine and this is a vehicle that isn't sold as a total performance based car. Soon once others get on board like Tesla anyone that wants to go fast is going to be in electric. Soon as they get the charging technology better a lot is going to change for people looking for that rush you get from going fast. There will be no picking up 2-4 mph with a tune on a truck. Maybe when all that happens here soon then they will go back and hit those few one off vehicles they chose not to do and hope people still want to bother with them when you can go out and buy someonthng that will blow the doors off it and not have to put any gas in it or very little.
So saying all that I believe you get what you can in the now before your world is flipped on its head and everything you were building for has completely changed direction. If I can buy a car in 5 years that does 0-100 faster then most gas can now in 0-60 I won't even think twice about messing with older technology and it is coming. Just look where Tesla is right now. When Harley Davidson says will be all electric in the next couple years you know stuff is changing. My two cents on why you act on things now even if the gain isn't what something has been you take what you can get and take it all.

[TTRAYDO]

I'm running into the same issue tuning my twin turbo 2017 silverado. My immediate torque source is "Axle" and then it pulls all timing. I've raised all the tq limits and put 800 in the lower 2 rows of driver demand and it still pulls timing from 3rd to 4th.

It appears to be random at times. Some days it does it, other days it rips. I'll try raising my minimum spark, but that seems like the shortcut to another problem.

[tunerpro]

I'm running into the same issue tuning my twin turbo 2017 silverado. My immediate torque source is "Axle" and then it pulls all timing. I've raised all the tq limits and put 800 in the lower 2 rows of driver demand and it still pulls timing from 3rd to 4th.

It appears to be random at times. Some days it does it, other days it rips. I'll try raising my minimum spark, but that seems like the shortcut to another problem.

Which transmission do you have? If it's the 8sp, did you unlock and calibrate the TCM?

[FastEddy]

I'm running into the same issue tuning my twin turbo 2017 silverado. My immediate torque source is "Axle" and then it pulls all timing. I've raised all the tq limits and put 800 in the lower 2 rows of driver demand and it still pulls timing from 3rd to 4th.

It appears to be random at times. Some days it does it, other days it rips. I'll try raising my minimum spark, but that seems like the shortcut to another problem.

I'm going to bump this thread because I have seen this same issue ever since the LT1's came out 4 years ago. The 2014 models seem to be the worst... It will say the Immediate Torque Source is "Axle" and your torque management timing will be up in the mid 20's... taking away all of your throttle response. Then once you get up to 20 or 30 mph (whatever it may be), it switches from "Axle" to "none" and boom, timing back to normal, vehicle driving great...

I've spent excessive amounts of time trying to change my delivered torque calculations, by using the virtual torque editor, but to no avail. So the band aid fix is to simply throw timing into the minimum spark tables... Which you can see even from the factory, is exactly what GM does. So perhaps they band aid fixed their own problem. I don't know... But it would really be nice if the engineers could possibly try to figure out what controls the "Immediate Torque Source", and how we can edit each one...

[Ben Charles]

The tq model is off if when touching the throttle and you have tq management spark... simple as that... had this same problem when I started tuning them...

Only time I have tq management spark now is when at idle, traction control and during the shift

[paulsmithsr]

just eliminate TQ Managemnet go to driver demand and lower it where it doesn't work ? will this fix it ?

[FastEddy]

The tq model is off if when touching the throttle and you have tq management spark... simple as that... had this same problem when I started tuning them...

Only time I have tq management spark now is when at idle, traction control and during the shift

The 2015+'s don't really do this. So I could say the same, I had this problem at first, but hardly have the problem anymore too... because 90% of what I tune is 2015-2017 now... So when I tuned a 2014 yesterday I didn't expect to have the problem. But I did. So I tried lowering the torque model using virtual torque, but that didn't fix anything. It didn't matter how low I tried making the delivered torque, it still would say "Axle" for the first 20-30 MPH, then switch to "none" and timing would go back to normal.

[lt1z350]

Ben how about a little insight on it? Going to be doing my 2017 zl1 soon and imagine it will be an issue for me too. Thank you