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Thread: 5.3 with factory GM ZR1 cam timing?

  1. #1
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    5.3 with factory GM ZR1 cam timing?

    Truck is running 'ok', idles ok and drives down the highway fine, no knock detected. But..low end is nonexistent and I am wondering if this can be remedied by modifying the timing in the main spark advance tables to look more like that of spark advance tables from a zr1 tune? It is currently using the timing tables from the 2000 silverado 5.3 stock tune. I have not found a tune that has zr1 cam in a 5.3 but I have seen many with z06 cams. How different are the zr1 vs z06 cams?

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner Obsolete489's Avatar
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    Just to be clear, you put a cam from a LS9 into a 5.3?

    I would look for a more aggressive timing table for a 5.3 from the tune repository, I doubt a tune meant for the LS9 is going to work very well for a N/A 5.3.

    Are you using this engine in a truck?
    2000 K2500 - 489 CI Vortec w/ comp XE270 cam - 0411 swap and rear mount turbo
    1972 M35a2
    2011 LML Duramax

  3. #3
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    Yes the 5.3 has a Z06 cam in it. It was outfitted with a 76mm turbo in its previous home/vehicle but we have since removed the turbo setup and it is now in a 1956 Ford F100 pickup with a TH350 trans. It runs surprisingly well with what little we've done in the tune thats why I was hoping some massaging of the timing tables would help since the cam is obviously not made for the same timings that the 5.3 stock cam was.

  4. #4
    Not much difference in those 2 cams. Slight lift and LSA differences. The ignition timing should be close to what you need from either cam.I use a long up hill road (3rd gear)and a stop watch to set timing.That way you can see any difference in timing changes.Also watch for knock. I would think it needs more advance in the lower rpm, low air flow part of the table.Also keep your low octane table 4* less than the hi octane table.

  5. #5
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    When I compare z06 spark tables to my current 5.3 stock spark tables they are waay different. Im not sure how it runs and idles being so different? The attached screenshots show the stock 5.3 timing then I opened a 5.3 tune with z06 cam from the repository to show in compare mode and then the last screenshot is the differences view. Im not sure what this is telling me?
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by 1972C10_LS; 03-09-2017 at 03:49 AM.

  6. #6
    If i were you,I would read everything I could on tuning. There are a few good books/online articles to learn from that are not expensive.The timing map in pic 2 should help your low end and overall drive ability. It may want more timing in the blue areas on pic 2.Maybe not. You have to try it. Watch for knock.Also time the runs to verify what you feel when driving it.I have a similar cam 212/218 that likes more timing than in pic 2.Every motor is different and reacts differently to changes.Hopefully the V/E and MAF tables were recalibrated when the turbo was removed. If not,start there.Compare them to a stock 5.3 and one with the cam.Timing changes are usually done after the V/E and MAF are calibrated.

  7. #7
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    The ecm that we're using is a stock 2000 5.3 silverado ecm, the ecm that was used for the turbo setup is not being used. So pic 1 is current and pic 2 is an example of what a 5.3 with z06 cam is using and pic 3 is the difference between 1 & 2. The pink area in pic 3 which corresponds to the blue area in pic 2 is the timing that should be added to the tune in pic 1 as a test? Ive ordered some tuning books, just anxious to get hand on is all. Thanks for your help I really appreciate it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1972C10_LS View Post
    then I opened a 5.3 tune with z06 cam from the repository
    Just because a tune is in the repository doesn't mean it is good. It just means that someone who thinks they know how to tune uploaded it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2xLS1 View Post
    Just because a tune is in the repository doesn't mean it is good. It just means that someone who thinks they know how to tune uploaded it.
    Agreed. But, in this instance, a stock tune from a 5.3 with stock cam vs a stock tune from a 5.7 with a stock z06 cam do not look much different than the comparison of someones tune from the repository with a 5.3 and z06 combination vs my stock 5.3 tables.....seems like they show VERY similar trend/differences...I was hoping someone would chime in and tell me what the difference in values between them meant. The values in the stock 5.3 table seem to be much much higher? Does that mean the timing is more or less advanced in 1 or the other? Thanks again.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #10
    Correct, there is a lot of junk in those tunes. There are also a lot of usable tunes or parts of them.He was looking for a timing map for comparison.

    I would try the timing map #2 as is. You will have to experiment to see what it wants.
    Just make a copy of your existing tune and save it.That way you can reinstall it if needed.
    Usually a 2* difference won`t make a huge change in how it runs,unless it is either over advanced or retarded.
    That is why I suggested using a timed run to verify changes along with checking for knock.
    Can you post a pic of the timing graph?
    It should be smooth without any major peaks or valleys.
    Also,advancing the timing usually leans the mixture, while retarding it richens the mix.

  11. #11
    Pic #3 shows the difference between pic #1 and 2.
    Negative (-) #`s show less timing * between 1 and 2 in*.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earwax View Post
    Correct, there is a lot of junk in those tunes. There are also a lot of usable tunes or parts of them.He was looking for a timing map for comparison.

    I would try the timing map #2 as is. You will have to experiment to see what it wants.
    Just make a copy of your existing tune and save it.That way you can reinstall it if needed.
    Usually a 2* difference won`t make a huge change in how it runs,unless it is either over advanced or retarded.
    That is why I suggested using a timed run to verify changes along with checking for knock.
    Can you post a pic of the timing graph?
    It should be smooth without any major peaks or valleys.
    Also,advancing the timing usually leans the mixture, while retarding it richens the mix.
    Are you referring to the timing map pic #2 from my earlier post that has 3 screenshots or from my more recent post where there are only 2 pics? Here is the timing graph from pic #2 on both of my posts. These are both way smoother than the factory 5.3 tune.

    1.png2.png

  13. #13
    I would try the map from post #5.
    Like I said you have to experiment using something that should be close.
    Use your existing tune and road test it, record the time and log it.
    This will give you a base to work from.
    Make a log and check for knock.
    Load the new timing map and run the same road test again with log.
    Check for knock and verify if the time improves or slows.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Earwax View Post
    I would try the map from post #5.
    Like I said you have to experiment using something that should be close.
    Use your existing tune and road test it, record the time and log it.
    This will give you a base to work from.
    Make a log and check for knock.
    Load the new timing map and run the same road test again with log.
    Check for knock and verify if the time improves or slows.
    Loaded the timing tables from that tune we talked about and truck pulls smoother thru the rpms ranges, overall improved. I logged some of the driving around. I noticed some knock retard showing up. Thoughts?
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  15. #15
    Tuning Addict 5FDP's Avatar
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    You aren't going into power enrichment, it needs more fuel.

    Likely you still have all the delays set very high or have removed TM from the tune but didn't change a seperate settings to allow it to enter PE.

    Post the tune file.
    2016 Silverado CCSB 5.3/6L80e, not as slow but still heavy.

    If you don't post your tune and logs when you have questions you aren't helping yourself.

  16. #16
    The P/E may still be set that way in the PCM. Post your tune as suggested.I would enable P/E before changing the timing.

  17. #17
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    You guys we're right, I had the PE settings set with values (640kpa MAP and 8000 rpm) that disabled it from ever coming in while we were logging some stft stuff. I re-enabled it and will try it again. Through this whole process I've found out I am missing some parameters that arent available in the 99-00 ecm's that have to do with PE. But anyways, I uploaded the current tune anyways if you have any suggestions or advice I'd love to hear them. Im trying to find any tricks or advice on low end power. I know the cam thats in it is designed for forced induction setups and for making power further up in rpm range than a stock truck cam would but I cant even get it to do a burnout with or without using the brake, maybe it is the stock converter that came with the rebuilt th350 but it shifts very solid and seems to work great otherwise. It has what appears to be a 3.08 rear gear, maybe its that but I wouldnt think thats too high of a gear with a th350 trans.
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  18. #18
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    The PE in that last file is maybe still setup as if you had a turbo? Its at 12.2:1 or even 11.something higher up the rpm... and it needs 95% throttle to engage a lot of the time.. There seems to be more KR than I'd like, but the timing is quite mild (imho)...

    That ignition timing in the last file looks pretty mild to me, particularly the rate of increase is quite low away from the idle areas, the first .png in post 12 looks more typical, but then, I know little about trucks!
    Last edited by dermotw; 03-11-2017 at 01:09 AM.
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    The PE eq ratio table has not been touched and is how it was from the factory 2000 silverado ecm. I'm still learning and experimenting so I may try the other timing like you mentioned. Are you saying the tps should be lowered in the pe enable tps vs rpm area?

  20. #20
    Yes, try setting the TPS enable (cold/hot)to start at 70% and end at 50 %. You can set it to whatever works best. If you start too low, it will be in P/E during normal driving. I would lower the RPM enable to 1200 or so.You can also use the MAP enable to set it. Change the TPS/RPM first. Log and post it ,see if it helped the knock.As stated it is not using P/E correctly.