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Thread: Why are most professional "tuners" doing Flex Fuel timing wrong?

  1. #41
    Senior Tuner LSxpwrdZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Sorry James,I meant the adder table up above the main spark table. How your describing tuning the ethanol flex advance table is exactly how I already do it. The torque adder table is what I was asking about.

    Thank you
    Oh I gotcha. If you are referring to the [ECM] 12661 Alcohol Adder table then that is definitely not where you want to put your actual timing adjustments. I'm sure you know but that particular adder table is for the torque timing table which deals with tq calculations. From my experience it doesn't actually adjust physical spark advance.
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    Well that's the table everyone was jumping on me for... I didn't see any gains at all with having it populated and also why I stated it requires to have the E85 torque model correct for it to even work correctly which is why I leave it zeroed out... I populate and tune every other E table there is - I even run the car on roughly a 50% mix to verify my settings... I've got a tune posted on the first page if you need to look through it
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  3. #43
    Senior Tuner LSxpwrdZ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Well that's the table everyone was jumping on me for... I didn't see any gains at all with having it populated and also why I stated it requires to have the E85 torque model correct for it to even work correctly which is why I leave it zeroed out... I populate and tune every other E table there is - I even run the car on roughly a 50% mix to verify my settings... I've got a tune posted on the first page if you need to look through it
    I think there are alot of tuners and professionals that don't fully understand each table. I will admit I don't know them all but some are very self explanatory. That one doesn't "have" to be populated to achieve a good delivered engine tq reading. I never populate that table either so you're not alone.
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  4. #44
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    I know area47 was experimenting with it last night - hopefully he figured something out on it
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
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  5. #45
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmtech16450yz View Post
    Good discussion guys!
    Just a quick example of the placebo effect and real effect. I have a dual mode ignition timing map switch on the handlebar of my YZ450. I can change between several different maps, but the handlebar switch is only programmed to switch between my best curve and the stock curve. My best curve is advanced pretty much all the way through the rpm/load range. Anyway, when you flip the switch back and forth the difference in the way the engine runs is obvious. But how do you know you're really feeling a difference and not just assuming it's stronger because you put the switch in the hi power position? Sometimes when I'm riding I'll bump the switch and it will go to the stock position. Within a minute or two I'll be riding along and start thinking "damn this thing feels sluggish, wth is going on?" I then look down and realize the switch got bumped to the stock position. THAT'S a solid test and indication that there really IS a difference that's not clouded by the placebo effect.
    I have a timing map switch on my 1997 ZL1 5.7 Vortec as well.. I get noticeable power and efficiency gain from adding 5 degrees of timing in low load, I dont have a dyno so cant tell at WOT. But, all you have to do is free rev any engine at say 1500rpm, then add timing, or subtract timing. RPM change will tell you if it wants more or less timing. I do this on the road too.. lock in your speed at say 55mph, then dont change a thing and flip the switch.. I start picking up speed just a bit. The end result from this is more efficiency, less fuel wasted. At WOT, I start to see knock if I add much more than 1-2 degrees, so no point messing with that.

    Regarding the pdf link... it is saying E40 makes the most power at 10:1 compression, so I will just add E85 until my Ethanol sensor reads 40%, up from 9.8% now. No point in going full E85... well unless I go to the track and want peak HP maybe.

    E85 vs E40 Power.PNG
    Last edited by 10_SS; 02-08-2017 at 11:24 AM.
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  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    I know area47 was experimenting with it last night - hopefully he figured something out on it
    damp roads and 700whp have more or less killed my experiments so far. {none dr, or et street tire tires} it is currently zeroed out in the file in the car.


    there is so much more i could add to this thread, but would rather not derail it from the topics at hand.

    On this topic at hand. he did mention the owner of the car was having starting issues. really? it's not hard! had a 70% alky content flex fuel car fire off the remote start this morning on the first hit. it was 20 degree's.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    I know area47 was experimenting with it last night - hopefully he figured something out on it
    I have the flex spark table populated by my tuner but I have had issues with knock below 2200 rpm in all gears under certain load conditions. I tried removing timing from the original file to what it is now but still get it. Can you see anything that looks off to you? I also have some issues with off idle and have to feather the gas and release the clutch super slow to keep the car from shuttering and bucking off idle. My car also has cold start hunting and long crank issues.
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  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Area47 View Post
    he did mention the owner of the car was having starting issues. really? it's not hard! had a 70% alky content flex fuel car fire off the remote start this morning on the first hit. it was 20 degree's.
    Got your PM Area47, been busy plus I hate PM's. lol. I'll reply, honest I will. Oh btw you can add whatever you want to this thread. I derail threads all the time, I'm certainly not going to complain if somebody does it to one of my threads. And I know it will be good info anyway so say whatever you want!

    Thought I'd throw this on here. This is from the tune/tuner in question about cold start E85 issues. This is the differences between the "tuners" modified for E85 tune and a stock tune file. Hmmm, I can't imagine why it would be hard starting? Seems legit to me. hahaha. Logic? We don't need no stinking logic.

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  9. #49
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    Mine only takes 5 or 6 tries to start, I'd say it's dialed in pretty well
    Post a log and tune if you want help

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  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmtech16450yz View Post
    Got your PM Area47, been busy plus I hate PM's. lol. I'll reply, honest I will. Oh btw you can add whatever you want to this thread. I derail threads all the time, I'm certainly not going to complain if somebody does it to one of my threads. And I know it will be good info anyway so say whatever you want!

    Thought I'd throw this on here. This is from the tune/tuner in question about cold start E85 issues. This is the differences between the "tuners" modified for E85 tune and a stock tune file. Hmmm, I can't imagine why it would be hard starting? Seems legit to me. hahaha. Logic? We don't need no stinking logic.

    not a problem man, just shoot back a reply when you can.


    As far as the alky table for torque, i can not tell the difference in the ole butt dyno, with it zeroed, or populated. kind of hard to tell if it picked up 5hp at this power level anyways.
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  11. #51
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    Hey guys....the CTS-V that gmtech is referring to. Yeah, it's mine, sadly. Or not so sadly. She's brand new and has a wonderful set of mods.

    Some of the sample stuff John/gmtech posted was from my (former) tune. It's pretty sad once I learned what I was looking at in HP Tuners! But it's also great to be a little more self-sufficient with your tunes. I guess I'll keep this thread update as we move forward.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TriTexan View Post
    Hey guys....the CTS-V that gmtech is referring to. Yeah, it's mine, sadly. Or not so sadly. She's brand new and has a wonderful set of mods.

    Some of the sample stuff John/gmtech posted was from my (former) tune. It's pretty sad once I learned what I was looking at in HP Tuners! But it's also great to be a little more self-sufficient with your tunes. I guess I'll keep this thread update as we move forward.
    it's the little things in the end. power is easy at wide open.
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  13. #53
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    Good Power isn't easy - it takes knowledge and time

    On a side note... Even though using the ethanol spark table is how I've been doing this since the beginning - I've really started paying attention and noticing some things in regards to alcohol timing... Basically if the timing is in the ethanol spark table - it's adding it or at least a predetermined percentage of it, but it only adds timing during wot pulls if it's in the PE/COT table... SO - if I'm running up through the airmass levels with light throttle like most big hp engines do - DO I REALLY want the "total" added timing at this time - would it not be better to have the "total" added timing in the PE/COT table? I've noticed that the engineers have gone to thinking this way on "their" timing tables which got me to thinking about it even more - the OE is using the PE/COT table for only the wot full timing additions possibly just for this reason...

    Anyway - been thinking about this for a little while now... Thinking it might just be best to have something more OEish in the main ethanol spark table and use the PE/COT table for the wot timing addition...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Good Power isn't easy - it takes knowledge and time

    On a side note... Even though using the ethanol spark table is how I've been doing this since the beginning - I've really started paying attention and noticing some things in regards to alcohol timing... Basically if the timing is in the ethanol spark table - it's adding it or at least a predetermined percentage of it, but it only adds timing during wot pulls if it's in the PE/COT table... SO - if I'm running up through the airmass levels with light throttle like most big hp engines do - DO I REALLY want the "total" added timing at this time - would it not be better to have the "total" added timing in the PE/COT table? I've noticed that the engineers have gone to thinking this way on "their" timing tables which got me to thinking about it even more - the OE is using the PE/COT table for only the wot full timing additions possibly just for this reason...

    Anyway - been thinking about this for a little while now... Thinking it might just be best to have something more OEish in the main ethanol spark table and use the PE/COT table for the wot timing addition...
    i have used the pe/cot timing tables as a adder test for a blank 2-3 degrees to see what would happen from time to time, or to pull timing before changing the final tables. it's an easy way of doing it honestly. it only triggers at wot under that eq ratio itself. we all know this. what puzzles other people is the ff adder is not a end all be all adder as it is run against the multiplier table in percentages on the ethanol content. what we don't see is the other tables in the background running in circle with these tables. on the flip side, most of us do not run the cot fuel adder tables anyways.

    there is always more to the picture at hand
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  15. #55
    Tuner dreksnot's Avatar
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    I know this was mentioned before, but for others who have not seen this in action, whatever spark adder is in the PE/COT table is what gets added to the main spark table when in PE - no multiplier action happens at all. So, if someone has a flex fuel sensor and the person is using a blend, say 40% ethanol fuel, then when in PE you get 100% of the PE/COT spark add (no percentage).

    This is one reason to use the flex fuel spark adder table. Or, maybe use both in conjunction could work as GM does.
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  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreksnot View Post
    I know this was mentioned before, but for others who have not seen this in action, whatever spark adder is in the PE/COT table is what gets added to the main spark table when in PE - no multiplier action happens at all. So, if someone has a flex fuel sensor and the person is using a blend, say 40% ethanol fuel, then when in PE you get 100% of the PE/COT spark add (no percentage).

    This is one reason to use the flex fuel spark adder table. Or, maybe use both in conjunction could work as GM does.
    This depends on the ECM... The E67 will actually use the predetermined percentage of both tables... Most of the newer generations of ECU's do... When in doubt though - use the ethanol spark table only

    I "think" to have the all around best tune that you would want both tables populated just for the simple reason that you probably don't want the full 4 or 6 or 10 or whatever degrees of timing being added in with light throttle acceleration... I'm not sure there's any harm in this as you usually need more timing with rpms, but I would personally prefer to have the timing only added in this abruptly where I know I've tuned for it under the wot conditions... I think a degree or two would be enough for light throttle accelerations and as discussed earlier in this thread - alcohol doesn't necessarily require more timing under light load conditions... SO - thinking I might start populating the ethanol spark table with minor amounts except for the lower rpm areas where it typically requires a lot of timing and then use the PE/COT table for the main big spark additions...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
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    Fixing a tune now from a "big shop". Car came in on e85, no sensor at all, stoich afr table still stock. Car didn't even know it was running on e85.

  18. #58
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    Personally I must admit since this thread started I have re-examined even how I tune E85 vehicles. I no longer put all of the additional timing into the flex spark table - I only put half of it there or a touch less and then the rest goes into the PE E85 table... I've started doing this for one reason and one reason only - no matter how well you tune in the PE tables, there are still instances where you can be in high airmass areas of the spark tables and still not be in PE!!! AND even though I have found absolutely no benefit or logic for them - I have started putting OE values into the torque adder tables since these apparently directly reflect on the transient fueling additions... I still don't use the gas PE timing table - although I have even been considering to start using it as well for the very same reason...

    Thank you John for starting this thread. Even though I was using the flex spark table, I wasn't thinking in the sense that I do now, so thank you for that...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Personally I must admit since this thread started I have re-examined even how I tune E85 vehicles. I no longer put all of the additional timing into the flex spark table - I only put half of it there or a touch less and then the rest goes into the PE E85 table... I've started doing this for one reason and one reason only - no matter how well you tune in the PE tables, there are still instances where you can be in high airmass areas of the spark tables and still not be in PE!!! AND even though I have found absolutely no benefit or logic for them - I have started putting OE values into the torque adder tables since these apparently directly reflect on the transient fueling additions... I still don't use the gas PE timing table - although I have even been considering to start using it as well for the very same reason...

    Thank you John for starting this thread. Even though I was using the flex spark table, I wasn't thinking in the sense that I do now, so thank you for that...
    Man, I've been pondering doing this, but just haven't crossed the bridge yet. It's been on the plate of things to do. Are you more or less putting about half of the positive timing split between each table from the lower-right side of the FF Spark table (high rpms / high AF)? Makes total sense.
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  20. #60
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    This is an example of how I'm doing it now - flex table still adds timing, but the other half comes in only during power enrichment...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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