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Thread: Question about Flex Fuel / E85 Tuning

  1. #21
    Tuner dreksnot's Avatar
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    Alcohol PE timing adder DID add the full 6* of timing, as shown in the logged full Timing Advance, and definitely felt and dyno'd like it should have (when tanked with E80, as I expected to according to my Multi table). But, the add appears to be either zero or full amount from the PE table, and the Multiplier didn't appear to have been used (no effect) for partial percentages of ethanol. All or nothing - so, I believe the lesson here is to be careful when running a blended tank, using a FF sensor, and aggressive E85 timing. I know this to be true for the PE adder table but have yet to see if the Multiplier DOES affect the values in the FF Spark Table.

    E85 PE Timing.jpg

    The PE timing add should be 4* (6* from the PE table multiplied by 0.667 from the Multiplier table) - but it's not.
    Last edited by dreksnot; 01-03-2017 at 03:21 PM.
    2013 Camaro LSX433 with TFS 245cc cat heads
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  2. #22
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    I've never seen the multiplier table get applied towards the regular A/F alcohol table - it will apply toward the regular flex fuel spark table fine though...

    It's a non running log, but you should get the jist - I have 6 degrees "I think" in the table where this is referencing...
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    Last edited by GHuggins; 01-03-2017 at 03:44 PM.
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    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by dreksnot View Post
    Alcohol PE timing adder DID add the full 6* of timing, as shown in the logged full Timing Advance, and definitely felt and dyno'd like it should have (when tanked with E80, as I expected to according to my Multi table). But, the add appears to be either zero or full amount from the PE table, and the Multiplier didn't appear to have been used (no effect) for partial percentages of ethanol. All or nothing - so, I believe the lesson here is to be careful when running a blended tank, using a FF sensor, and aggressive E85 timing. I know this to be true for the PE adder table but have yet to see if the Multiplier DOES affect the values in the FF Spark Table.

    E85 PE Timing.jpg

    The PE timing add should be 4* (6* from the PE table multiplied by 0.667 from the Multiplier table) - but it's not.
    Yeah, don't use that table. Try the flex fuel spark table instead. Should be down at the bottom right on the same page the mult is on

    And you'll need to log alcohol or ethanol advance also
    Last edited by schpenxel; 01-03-2017 at 03:57 PM.
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  4. #24
    Tuner dreksnot's Avatar
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    Just saying, this is what the HPTuner description claims it'll do. (see tiny picture below)

    PE COT Table description.jpg
    2013 Camaro LSX433 with TFS 245cc cat heads
    AGP 65/65 Twin Turbos into BTR Equalizer intake
    BTR 237/247 .610"/.601" 116+5 (10* overlap) cam
    ID-1700x on AGP Fore Triple w/ Flex Fuel sensor
    Cortex EBC | n2mb WOT box | custom anti-lag

  5. #25
    Tuner dreksnot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schpenxel View Post
    Yeah, don't use that table. Try the flex fuel spark table instead. Should be down at the bottom right on the same page the mult is on
    Already populated my FF spark table with a stock 6.2L FF vehicle table I found in the Repository, along with some slight modifications, and zeroed out the Alcohol PE table. When in boost and PE, I should be at the same timing as I've been running "safely." It's been entirely too cold to tank up with E85 so I'll have to see if the Multiplier has the proper affect when I can tank up and log.
    2013 Camaro LSX433 with TFS 245cc cat heads
    AGP 65/65 Twin Turbos into BTR Equalizer intake
    BTR 237/247 .610"/.601" 116+5 (10* overlap) cam
    ID-1700x on AGP Fore Triple w/ Flex Fuel sensor
    Cortex EBC | n2mb WOT box | custom anti-lag

  6. #26
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    Ah give it a go in the cold, it should still start. Or at least mine did with E80 in 20'ish degrees. It did turn over a bit longer than normal though

  7. #27
    Senior Tuner DSteck's Avatar
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    I use the PE adder with zero issue and have no problem sliding timing according to ethanol content.

    I'd suggest revisiting how you set up the bias table.

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  8. #28
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    Any suggestion for the biasing table Dave?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

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  9. #29
    Tuner dreksnot's Avatar
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    Well, when I installed my FF sensor, I asked if these tables needed to be populated:

    Engine>Fuel>Transient>Evap Factor Blend
    Engine>Fuel>Transient>Transient Fuel Mass Gain Impact Factor>Blend
    and
    Engine>Spark>Advance>Spark Correction AFR Correction>Multi vs. Composition

    The answer was No, No and Yes. Suggestion was 0,0,0.2,0.5,1 <<< since I can get E75-80 regularly (and 91 is E10), I changed the values to 0,0,0.67,1,1 (plus I've heard anything over E60 runs the same... so far, that's what I've seen out of my experience).

    I did that, then at some point, figured (being Mr. Smartypants) it wouldn't hurt to populate the other two tables with 0,0.125,0.25,0.625,1 <<< I wonder if populating those two other tables messed with the overall resultant... and that's why I get an all or nothing spark add?
    Last edited by dreksnot; 01-03-2017 at 08:13 PM.
    2013 Camaro LSX433 with TFS 245cc cat heads
    AGP 65/65 Twin Turbos into BTR Equalizer intake
    BTR 237/247 .610"/.601" 116+5 (10* overlap) cam
    ID-1700x on AGP Fore Triple w/ Flex Fuel sensor
    Cortex EBC | n2mb WOT box | custom anti-lag

  10. #30
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    From what i learned and have seen from multiple people.
    Engine>Spark>Advance>Spark Correction AFR Correction>Multi vs. Composition

    The other stuff mention i followed from a 2012 Holden Cal that was Flex fuel. With that said, i'm trying to narrow down WHICH table needs to be populated for correct Flex spark tuning.. which seems like its "flex fuel spark".. The AFR correction table, Gas and Alcohal are adders while in PE/COT... So your high octane table + your Alcohol table = total spark while in PE which is how i understand it. But if E85 goes to E40 and nothings in Flex fuel spark, what happens?

    Basically i'm asking WHICH table needs to be modified for spark control if i have my comp setup.

  11. #31
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    so far im only using the flex fuel spark table and it seems to be working fine, but looks like there are a few options if u set up main spark for petrol then add to flex spark for ethanol then u could also use the PE/COT adder table for PE with an increase for petrol in one table and ethanol in the other with the flex composition between them both if u added more to the ethanol table, so looks like the mult v composition isnt for the actual use of added timing for flex it for going from the PE/COT petrol table to the PE/COT Alcohol table..?

  12. #32
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    There's multiple ways to skin a cat, i get that, i just want to understand all ways. Thats all.

  13. #33
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    I may have to play with the spark advance correction table, but honestly it seems like a simpler way to get timing added with flex fuel than messing with the whole flex fuel spark table. I've never messed with it, but I'm assuming the row axis is the same EQ ratio as the PE table (meaning 1/EQ = commanded lambda).

    I feel like you'll get similar results either way but you lose some granularity with the spark advance method...not that it probably matters since most people just add a flat amount of timing (within an rpm range) with the flex fuel spark table anyway.

    I setup my comp table like this because we usually get ~e70 around here out of the pump and I figured to tune around that comp vs anything higher.
    0,0,.6,.9.,1
    Last edited by sevinn; 01-10-2017 at 09:52 AM.

  14. #34
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    You might want to lower the .9 to .75 or .8... Unless your just looking to add full timing for E60 to E70, which I guess was your point...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    You might want to lower the .9 to .75 or .8... Unless your just looking to add full timing for E60 to E70, which I guess was your point...
    Yeah that was the goal since that's about as high as I'll ever get out of our pumps, and if I do it won't surprise me by adding more timing than I'd want.