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Thread: DOD Delete - LS9 Cam Fitted. Sluggish. Where To Start?

  1. #1
    Advanced Tuner BigDaddyCool's Avatar
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    DOD Delete - LS9 Cam Fitted. Sluggish. Where To Start?

    So I've killed off the DOD stuff from my L76, fitted LS9 cam/springs for a NA. I know everyone says it is not a good cam for NA. I did it due to price. Has a bit more top end apparently over the LS3 cam which is what I was looking for.

    It's a little sluggish. It has coasting off idle slight sluggishness which I'm not 100% on.......

    Looking where to start tune wise. The tune log looks fine, no changes really needed but driving it says differently. It's alot more sluggish then my old cam and apparently has lost 50nm across the board. I'm yet to double check everything mechanically but it all looks fine.

    Idea's? My questions relate to things like idle. Mines set to 550, the ZR1 runs 650. Do I need to copy over the Torque Coefficients or change them to tell the engine to calculate torque differently for the new cam etc.

    My throttle is a VSS unfortunately so I cant just rig over a RPM style from the ZR1..... It drives mostly fine but it's sluggish to start, and drive.
    2017 Toyota Kluger - 10.1" Android Custom Head Unit, Rockford Fosgate Speakers, 85kg Roof Racks. Prev: 2009 Cammed VE SS Sedan, DOD Delete, 210/218 550', RAMJet OTR, HiFlowCats, IQ System, Amp/Speakers.

  2. #2
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    Have you checked your VE calibration? Fueling while your throttling? Tried adding in timing for the lower rpms?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  3. #3
    ive fitted this cam to my ve ss although i have a blower on mine i could still add timing allover the cruise areas and see improvements without getting knock.

    it is also feels stronger across the board. i feel that the standard cam makes the engine much more timing sensitive.

    i left the idle at 550 and it is very smooth like a stock one. this cam works but it works late from about 4000 and makes power clean to 6700. i made 350rwkw with it and a magnuson 1900 making 10 pound boost through the 6l80e.

  4. #4
    Tuner in Training
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    You could verify what is your idle timing, on LS3 and gen v LT1 I use the base running airflow tabs to adjust throttle and also impact timing.

    During troubleshooting to find what is the minimum timing the car likes I use the spark minimum table, then adjust the car to reach such value.

    The LS9 cam has a Lobe separation of 122.5 thus theoretically should idle fine.

  5. #5
    Advanced Tuner BigDaddyCool's Avatar
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    Yes the lobe separation is high, and it's probably what makes the cam suffer down low. My long diff doesn't help things. I've started with MAF tuning...... I can see my VE was way off (will revisit after a base maf tune for a starting point)... I don't know about the idle being 550, I feel it needs to be increased but it could be a idle timing thing. My idle timing is stock for a VE SS, there's quite a fair bit of differences between my stock tune tables vs a ZR1 corvette tune...... so I've gotta try a few tables and see what happens.

    The cam so far seems like a bit of an odd ball, bit gutless but at the same time just sits on torque? .... It removes that wild edge my stock cam had which I actually prefer..... but I query it's power output .... yet to see what it's capable of....... I run various timing.... the end being between 22-24 degree's at 12.56 afr
    Last edited by BigDaddyCool; 01-02-2017 at 10:23 PM.
    2017 Toyota Kluger - 10.1" Android Custom Head Unit, Rockford Fosgate Speakers, 85kg Roof Racks. Prev: 2009 Cammed VE SS Sedan, DOD Delete, 210/218 550', RAMJet OTR, HiFlowCats, IQ System, Amp/Speakers.

  6. #6
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    add timing down low. no way around mechanical changes like this. did the same cam in a 2010 silverado. hated it. no power till 4500.
    The most hated, make the most power.
    93 Ranger. 5.3 D1X. 1069hp.

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    AND don't be afraid to add a decent amount of timing - use a zl1 for some comparison if need be, but keep in mind of compression differences - you should wind up with a bulge in the lower rpms mid load areas...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  8. #8
    Advanced Tuner BigDaddyCool's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    AND don't be afraid to add a decent amount of timing - use a zl1 for some comparison if need be, but keep in mind of compression differences - you should wind up with a bulge in the lower rpms mid load areas...
    I took the timing tables out of the ZL1 including the knock tables and just ran a stand still wot run to check it out.... timing was fine. Managed to pull approx 290kw at the engine.... up by about 20-30kw over my stock cam. This is using engine torque to calculate the output etc.

    That was just a base run....... just to get a guage of it. But yes as someone else mentioned it seems pretty crap....... 4500rpm power comes on, but before then it's a dud. Basically I'm going to see if I can get what I need out of it, if not....... i'll scrap it eventually. Seems like it might be good on fuel tho which is something.

    Wish I had just gone a LS3 or LS7 cam now. Aftermarket cams are so expensive, I would go a Lunati Voodoo cam if I get an aftermarket.

    Anyway I'll see what I come up with this first. I plan on using the ZL1 timing table and then cutting it down once I work out my torque curves etc. I'm aware of the compression differences but unsure of the weight it plays against the timing etc. It looks like I can run 28 degree's at the top end at this stage. I've worked out my fueling already to get the best torque/power throughout the power band. It does like a tag more fuel towards the top.
    Last edited by BigDaddyCool; 01-04-2017 at 08:04 AM.
    2017 Toyota Kluger - 10.1" Android Custom Head Unit, Rockford Fosgate Speakers, 85kg Roof Racks. Prev: 2009 Cammed VE SS Sedan, DOD Delete, 210/218 550', RAMJet OTR, HiFlowCats, IQ System, Amp/Speakers.

  9. #9
    Advanced Tuner BigDaddyCool's Avatar
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    Incase anyone reads this. I have a quick question.........

    I feel like somethings being calculated wrong with the airflow on the car since the cam change. Basically on a log, on a wot run......... the indicated spark advance suggests a higher cylinder air mass then whats reported and the maf flow increase after doing the cam supports my thoughts.

    eg. HP Scanner reports 0.78g sec..... for cylinder airflow, but the timing being reported suggests it's 0.88g to 0.92g. Any reason why this might be? It's not in one spot it's throughout the entire run. It's like it's being calculated wrong but the car knows what the truth is and is using the proper timing section for that.

    Does this have something to do with the Engine Co-Efficents - Torque Airmass?
    Last edited by BigDaddyCool; 01-11-2017 at 05:10 PM.
    2017 Toyota Kluger - 10.1" Android Custom Head Unit, Rockford Fosgate Speakers, 85kg Roof Racks. Prev: 2009 Cammed VE SS Sedan, DOD Delete, 210/218 550', RAMJet OTR, HiFlowCats, IQ System, Amp/Speakers.

  10. #10
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    Its tuner locked, but I'm seeing .78 cylinder airmass and 27.5 degrees of timing...

    The only time I've ever seen one add timing to what's being commanded in the main spark tables is when the torque coefficient tables were overly raised which caused it to add timing off of the max torque timing table... That's if there aren't other adders like ect, iat and so on playing into things...
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner BigDaddyCool's Avatar
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    I'll fix that file up when I got home, I did clear the tuner lock....... must of selected the wrong file or something. Basically where it's running say .78g for the airmass at 27.5 degree's of timing....... on my main spark tables that might be 30.5 degree's for example........ there are no iat or ect subtractors based on temps........... so what i'm saying is either it's using the spark from say .88 to .92g or maybe it's an adaptive idle taking off timing? ......... i'll unlock the file and also throw up a picture of the spark table so you get an idea....... it's not running enough timing is my point, almost like the cars looking further down the cyclinder airmass for the right timing.

    ANOTHER THING Note how the car leans out at 3550.... Why is the question. PE 1.17 stable to 4000
    Last edited by BigDaddyCool; 01-12-2017 at 03:00 AM.
    2017 Toyota Kluger - 10.1" Android Custom Head Unit, Rockford Fosgate Speakers, 85kg Roof Racks. Prev: 2009 Cammed VE SS Sedan, DOD Delete, 210/218 550', RAMJet OTR, HiFlowCats, IQ System, Amp/Speakers.

  12. #12
    Advanced Tuner BigDaddyCool's Avatar
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    I'll throw up some findings.......... I've figured out most things now...... It's interesting tho, you can choose between a ZR1 a supercharged 6.2 with the LS9 cam as a basis for tuning (much lower compression) or you could look to a Z06 which has the LS7 slightly shorter LSA. The idle timing is wildly different between the two.

    They both drive very similar (maf only pretty close to accurate on my part).

    What I know about the LS9 is this..... It's not really suitable for a N/A. Basically it's smothered until 3500rpm where it begins to wake up. It's begging for a supercharger really to really get some pressure to move under that curve. And honestly although it supposedly makes more power at the top which it feels like it does, a cam that produces more power over the entire rev range might dyno less at the top, but it will hit a 0-100 (0-60) time faster....

    I cannot get this cam to budge ...... it insists on sitting at less then 0.60g under 3500 virtually. It doesn't really seem to matter which way I take it tuning wise, no burst, burst, pe of .01, .1, 1.0 1.145 to 1.195 avg.... timing up or down...

    It's like a mule...... slow. It rumbles sure, not much else. It's a tag quicker at light throttle off the line, a slug off a stand still wot run....... but atleast on wot, it has less grip issues to to taking it's sweet time.

    I haven't lost any time 0-100...... on HP Tuners, I measured 6.3 (before any response -TPS,Spark,Fuel to 100km/h). - Like realistic from the moment I hit go...... car lag and call. It was the same on my old cam as this one.

    I've attached that tune......... I hope it's unlocked...... It looked fine to me, if not let me know how to remove the tuner lock.

    I was hoping to try and get the car to take a bit of a gulp of air from a stand still take off to try and overcome the lag/lack of getting the air through the engine to maintain a higher airflow but it wont budge. Perhaps fiddling with idle might help but I doubt it. I just hope it's the cam causing this and not a lack of changes to the tune....... eg. idle calcs, throttle follower etc. I've worked out changing the entire pcm torque calculations doesn't do much....... might as well leave them stock.
    Last edited by BigDaddyCool; 01-13-2017 at 05:31 PM.
    2017 Toyota Kluger - 10.1" Android Custom Head Unit, Rockford Fosgate Speakers, 85kg Roof Racks. Prev: 2009 Cammed VE SS Sedan, DOD Delete, 210/218 550', RAMJet OTR, HiFlowCats, IQ System, Amp/Speakers.