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Thread: S550 Tuning Project - 6R80 Transmission Tuning - Understanding Definitions

  1. #1
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    S550 Tuning Project - 6R80 Transmission Tuning - Understanding Definitions

    Guys, I am new to tuning and would like some help with understanding the definitions of the settings within the transmissions Auto Shift Properties and Auto TCC tabs. I know there is a brief description within HP tuners software but its not detailed enough to understand the actual function and how a change can effect the transmission's and cars performance. Can someone explain the below and how it works? This would be very helpful information to all people using this software and tuning in general for these transmissions.

    Just so you all know, I just bought a 2016 Mustang GT which will be heavily modified as a father and son project within the next year, but also a project for all of us here within this website to promote self tuning but to also promote HP Tuners. First, I plan on tuning this car from NA stock, then to NA bolt-on's (CAI, Headers, no cats, GT350 intake and 67mm TB, Stall, etc), then NA bolt-ons with Nitrous, and then to end with forced induction (Twin Turbos), all of which will be documented and shared freely to better educate all of us here. I figured before adding HP to the car, to start with the transmission first, see the performance changes with the tranny alone before adding HP. I have already read many threads, made many changes to the transmission tune based on suggestions within this forum which I have already seen gains with a simple stock motor, but I cannot finalize this until I understand more about what these settings do so the tune can be finalized and result published within. Anyhow, hopefully I can get some help from all of you here so we can all benefit. Thanks!!

    To start:
    Upshift Pressure Oncoming
    Upshift Pressure Offgoing
    Downshift Pressure Oncoming
    Downshift Pressure Offgoing
    Boost Pressure
    Boost time
    Ramp Rate
    Ramp Rate Offgoing
    Ramp rate Oncoming
    Initial slip time
    Overall slip time
    Torque Transfer Time

    TCC Map (How changing the slip and lock up time effect the transmission)
    TCC Ramp
    TCC Open Slip
    Capacity Intercept
    Speed Ratio
    TCC Apply Delay

  2. #2
    Bump. Also, any know how to add stroke pressure values per element?

  3. #3
    Would like to know as well

  4. #4
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    Same here... I would purchase a good guide from someone that knows their way around tuning these transmissions. If someone does it I would also be interested in whether changes are safe on only Mustang weight vehicles or fine in an F150 as well.

  5. #5
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    I have been tuning my 2014 F150 Eco for about a year and messed with the trans quite a bit. I will describe below the way I understand these controls but I am not an expert. 2015+ is different than 11-14 also.


    Upshift Pressure Oncoming - starting pressure before any adapts that controls how firmly the oncoming (next gear) clutch applies. Bump these to firm up your upshifts.

    Upshift Pressure Offgoing - starting pressure before any adapts that controls how firmly the off going "current gear" clutch is held. Raise these if you develop any shift flair.

    Downshift Pressure Oncoming - pressure that controls how firm the clutch applies during a downshift. I usually leave these alone.

    Downshift Pressure Offgoing - pressure that control how firm the current gear is held during a downshift. I usually leave these alone as well.

    Boost Pressure - Still not sure and never needed to change them.

    Boost time - related to how long the boost pressure is applied. Never messed with it.

    Ramp Rate - not sure what ramp rate you are referring to. Usually controls how quickly pressure is built or released. Raising ramp rates will make things happen faster. I bump my open loop oncoming ramp rates a little where WOT cells would apply.

    Ramp Rate Offgoing - see above.

    Ramp rate Oncoming - see above.

    Initial slip time - target time for the initial application of the applying clutch.

    Overall slip time - controls the overall application time of the applying clutch. I try to treat this as the sum of the initial tables and torque transfer tables although the math doesn't add up exactly. These tables are in milliseconds so something like 100 in a cell is not much time at all. You may have to lower the initial, torque transfer and overall slip times to achieve and keep firmer shifts.

    Torque Transfer Time - time it takes to transfer torque from one clutch to the next completing the shift.

    TCC Map (How changing the slip and lock up time effect the transmission) this table determines when the converter locks and unlocks. When you change shift points you sometimes have to change the lock up schedule.

    TCC Ramp - controls how quickly the converter locks up

    TCC Open Slip - the rpm the converter will slip while locked. Most set these to 0

    Capacity Intercept - never messed with it.

    Speed Ratio - the relation between engine rpm and input shaft speed. You will see 1.00 when the converter is locked and ".xx" when slipping.

    TCC Apply Delay - usually a delay to lock the converter after an event such as an upshift. I lower these.


    Quote Originally Posted by R8Bill View Post
    Guys, I am new to tuning and would like some help with understanding the definitions of the settings within the transmissions Auto Shift Properties and Auto TCC tabs. I know there is a brief description within HP tuners software but its not detailed enough to understand the actual function and how a change can effect the transmission's and cars performance. Can someone explain the below and how it works? This would be very helpful information to all people using this software and tuning in general for these transmissions.

    Just so you all know, I just bought a 2016 Mustang GT which will be heavily modified as a father and son project within the next year, but also a project for all of us here within this website to promote self tuning but to also promote HP Tuners. First, I plan on tuning this car from NA stock, then to NA bolt-on's (CAI, Headers, no cats, GT350 intake and 67mm TB, Stall, etc), then NA bolt-ons with Nitrous, and then to end with forced induction (Twin Turbos), all of which will be documented and shared freely to better educate all of us here. I figured before adding HP to the car, to start with the transmission first, see the performance changes with the tranny alone before adding HP. I have already read many threads, made many changes to the transmission tune based on suggestions within this forum which I have already seen gains with a simple stock motor, but I cannot finalize this until I understand more about what these settings do so the tune can be finalized and result published within. Anyhow, hopefully I can get some help from all of you here so we can all benefit. Thanks!!

    To start:
    Upshift Pressure Oncoming
    Upshift Pressure Offgoing
    Downshift Pressure Oncoming
    Downshift Pressure Offgoing
    Boost Pressure
    Boost time
    Ramp Rate
    Ramp Rate Offgoing
    Ramp rate Oncoming
    Initial slip time
    Overall slip time
    Torque Transfer Time
    TCC Map (How changing the slip and lock up time effect the transmission)
    TCC Ramp
    TCC Open Slip
    Capacity Intercept
    Speed Ratio
    TCC Apply Delay

  6. #6
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    Thanks for the time and effort you put into this reply!!

    From what I have done and seen in my testing, increasing upshift pressure and shifting ramp rate is key to faster and hard shifting with torque management off. I am currently experimenting with the slip times at the track to see how this effects the times and MPH, hope to have this testing gone in the next month or two.

    One thing I did not put on this list was the clutch fill time. I see it does affect the shifting RPM if changed i.e. if increased the shift will happen earlier or under your specified shift RPM. I was also told by a source that the clutch fill times must be increased higher than stock value if the torque management has been disabled as having it set too low would damage the clutch pack. The coyote cookbook manual says to decrease this to a low value, I believe to 0.200 if memory recalls however this I would not do this IMO. Most tunes I have seen increase this to around 0.7 or higher, still not sure how this actually works and would hope to hear from others on their knowledge and experiences with this and with changing other variables within the transmission settings. I was hoping Eric with HP Tuners would provide us with more details to these as it would make things easier for all of us newbies to tune our cars without worrying about destroying them, hint hint Eric. However, people make money selling tunes or tuning classes so I do not anticipate a lot of knowledge or secrets being shared which kinda sucks so we must learn the hard way. Thanks again for replying!!

  7. #7
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    To understand these terms you need to understand how the transmission works and what its doing for each shift. You have 6 clutches, 3 driven and 3 held. A,B,C,D,E, and a OWD clutch. A,B, and E are drive clutches. C,D, and OWD clutches are hold clutches.

    Each gear is a combination of applied clutches to achieve a gear combination. A drive clutch routes torque from one gear to another while a hold clutch takes a gear out of the ratio.

    1st gear starts with a and d applied at 3mph d is released as an offgoing(technically its the OWD clutch thats released but thats controlled by d)

    2nd gear is a and c applied. on upshift there is no offgoing for this gear unless the shift is below 3mph, but boost pressure gets applied to a. The oncoming is c.

    3rd gear is a and b applied. on upshift c is the offgoing and b is the oncoming

    4th gear is a and e applied. on upshift b is offgoing and e in oncoming.

    5th is b and e

    6th is c and e

    on downshifts the clutches(elements) are reversed for off going and on coming.

    boost pressure is applied to offgoing clutches for load holding capacity purposes during shifts. This pressure increase takes time to build and is applied as a ramp rate.

    Clutch fill times are the time it takes to fill the clutch with low pressure fluid upon its release. This completes the shift once achieved. the 1>2 clutch fill time is release of d

    Every thing in the Adaptive tab is for increasing shift smoothness. there are two phases torque phase and an inertia phase. Boosting the pressure at the begging of the shift is the torque phase. Just before this is complete the pressure is lowered to reduce the inertia bump from the oncoming gear. initial slip time describes this point in the shift. Overall slip time describes how long the pressure drops for. The pressure is then built back up in the inertia phase. Torque transfer time describes how long this pressure takes to build. This tab can help you gain how hard of shift feel you want. Just make it fit to your boost time and clutch fill times.

    Ive emailed support about adding these element pressures to the scanner. Its a key to getting faster shifts.
    Last edited by murfie; 02-09-2017 at 06:23 AM.

  8. #8
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    Thanks Murf!

    Question-1: If torque management if off, would running a stock value or lower clutch fill time cause damage to the clutches? I was told it does and I noticed a lot of FI track cars are running higher clutch fill times like 0.7 or greater. The issue when running higher clutch fill times is that you have to adjust your OSS maps to get your shift RPM higher, example:

    With a clutch fill time set to 0.55 on a WOT 1-2 shift, the oss was set to 1950 and we commanded a 7900RPM shift to get it to shift at 7500 which was our desired shift point.
    With a clutch fill time set to 0.80 on a WOT 1-2 shift, the oss was set to 2038 and we commanded a 8500RPM shift to get it to shift at 7500 which was our desired shift point.

    As you can see, the clutch time has a huge affect on the shift RPM, so if you want a 7500 RPM shift, you have to increase the OSS, the shift tables and also the limiters to get it to shift higher. If we knew the transmission clutches would hold up at lower fill times, then the commanded shift RPM would be closer to the actual shift RPM.

    When comparing the S550 and S197 6R80 transmission tunes, there is a noticeable difference in clutch fill times with the new S550 times being shorter on a 1-2 and 2-3 shift:

    7000 RPM 1-2, S550: 0.52 - S197: 0.6960
    7000 RPM 2-3, S550: 0.52 - S197: 0.6320
    7000 RPM 3-4, S550: 0.66 - S197: 0.7100

    The Coyote cookbook say to keep the 1-2 fill time to stock (S197 value) of 0.6960 but to lower clutch fill times a lot on a 2-3 to 0.200 and 3-4 shift to 0.300. Do you think this would be too low and could burn up clutches?

    Question-2: When upgrading your clutch system to say an Exedy stage 2 clutch pack, would you still need to run higher clutch fill times or can they be reduced?

    Question-3: When comparing the S550 and S197 6R80 tunes, there is a noticeable difference in Boost times and slip and torque transfer times. Now, I have not played with these boost times nor do I know if it would have a significant impacted on shift times, but if the transmission is the same, would it be advisable for S197 transmission owners to use S550 values as Ford may have made the transmission tuning better, then modify accordingly to increase shift times i.e. shift pressures, etc.?

  9. #9
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    Auto tcc

    Murf,

    There was a tune you posted on the repository for an S550 with 7200RPM shifting that you posted if you recall and there were a few things I was hoping you could tell us about the transmission AUTO TCC changes you made. What do these changes do and how do they increase transmission performance? Thanks!

    Lock to Lock shift
    L-to-L Shift - Stock.jpgL-to-L Shift - Murf.jpg

    After Upshift:

    L-Rate - Stock.jpgL-Rate - Murf.jpg

    Added Capacity:
    Add Cap - Stock.jpgAdd Cap - Murf.jpg

    Added Capacity non-shift:
    Add Cap NS - Stock.jpgAdd Cap NS - Murf.jpg

    Step Change Capacity Non-shifting:
    SCC-NS - Stock.jpgSCC-NS - Murf.jpg

  10. #10
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    Auto tcc

    Continued....

    Step Change Capacity Shifting:
    SCC-S - Stock.jpgSCC-S - Murf.jpg

    Capacity Target Engagement:
    TSI - Stock.jpgTSI - Murf.jpg

    Hard Lock:
    HL - Stock.jpgHL - Murf.jpg

    Target slip:
    TS - Stock.jpgTS - Murf.jpg

  11. #11
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    The shift is completing earlier than commanded because the clutch is filled. If you give it a second to complete and it completed in .1 seconds the shift is completed after .1 seconds fill time. If the RPM is 500 or 1000 lower than commanded it doesn't matter the gear has been changed. If gears are shifted sooner than commanded times need to be lowered. If not your times are fine. If you are getting flat spots in rpm from the offgoing clutch holding on after the shift times need to be raised.

    Clutch full times are releasing the applied clutch. An after market clutch pack will hold more power in these flat spots. The stock clutches in these transmissions are great. Unless you are over 600ftlbs I wouldn't worry too much as long as you don't have really bad flat spots or flares.

    Again boost times need to be long enough to meet boost pressure no longer or shorter. Longer will cause earlier than commanded shifts. Shorter will cause the RPM to flare past commanded shift point.

    Slip and tq transfer times are different between s197 and s550 as Ford was probably making the shift feel more refined(soft) for world consumption. I have not really spent any time comparing them to draw a real conclusion.

    The tune I posted was copied from the cobra jet file with minor tweaking.

    I'll make another post on the TCC stuff later.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    The shift is completing earlier than commanded because the clutch is filled. If you give it a second to complete and it completed in .1 seconds the shift is completed after .1 seconds fill time. If the RPM is 500 or 1000 lower than commanded it doesn't matter the gear has been changed. If gears are shifted sooner than commanded times need to be lowered. If not your times are fine. If you are getting flat spots in rpm from the offgoing clutch holding on after the shift times need to be raised.

    Clutch full times are releasing the applied clutch. An after market clutch pack will hold more power in these flat spots. The stock clutches in these transmissions are great. Unless you are over 600ftlbs I wouldn't worry too much as long as you don't have really bad flat spots or flares.

    Again boost times need to be long enough to meet boost pressure no longer or shorter. Longer will cause earlier than commanded shifts. Shorter will cause the RPM to flare past commanded shift point.

    Slip and tq transfer times are different between s197 and s550 as Ford was probably making the shift feel more refined(soft) for world consumption. I have not really spent any time comparing them to draw a real conclusion.

    The tune I posted was copied from the cobra jet file with minor tweaking.

    I'll make another post on the TCC stuff later.
    Any news on the TCC stuff Murfie?

    Any advice on stall converter tuning too?

  13. #13
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    So the torque convertor is made up of four parts.

    Impeller ( part physically attached to engine and drives fluid)
    Turbine (part physically attached to input shaft and driven by fluid)
    Reactor (Directs fluid from the turbine to the impeller to assist in torque multiplication, Stationary at low speeds, rotates at higher speeds)
    TCC

    The TCC is a 2 plate clutch. It has three states Apply/Release/ Modulate(slip). It can only be applied in 2nd- 6th. Pressure is removed from one side of the plate to apply the clutch. The bypass clutch control regulator valve controls the pressure and flow direction of transmission fluid to apply or release the clutch. The TCC solenoid controls the direction of this valve. Everything works off a pressure per torque @ RPM system. So higher rpm/ torque values usually mean more pressure away and the less the clutch is applied. So "0's" are fully applied. You'll notice some of the "1st gear" tables are full of "0s" which doesnt matter as the TCC does not apply in 1st.

    Lock to lock shift: raised in the higher torque area to loosen convertor on all lock to lock shifts(basically all but 1-2, maybe 2-3)
    After up shift: raised to have a looser converter feel after shift

    Both of these are a rate at which the TCC applies. low applies faster high applies slower.

    Added capacity during shift: raised to have TCC applied less during shift.
    Added capacity non shift: Raised to have less TCC applied during accel and decel.

    Maybe you can see a pattern for TCC tuning.

    Step change capacity non shift, upshift, downshift: This modifies Torque values for better feel.

    Capacity intercept: These are maximums(limits) based on temperature.

    A lot of this is how the car feels to drive. Some of it can improve performance by allowing more torque multiplication.

    For stock convertor you want to release the TCC some for performance. For higher stall you need to play with it to see where it feels good to drive while still getting the performance you got it for.

  14. #14
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    Murfie, Thank you so much for spending your time helping us understand more about this topic!!!

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    Any tuning suggestion when installing a stall converter, like a 2b or 2b? I have a 2b installed right now using stock settings, seems to work ok but would like to know if any changes need to be done to not hurt converter but to also increase 1/4 eta's

  16. #16
    The tune I posted was copied from the cobra jet file with minor tweaking.

    Do you still have this tune murfie

    Can you repos

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by elerico View Post
    The tune I posted was copied from the cobra jet file with minor tweaking.

    Do you still have this tune murfie

    Can you repos
    its in the repository

  18. #18
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    How are the tables for slip times, clutch fill times, torque transfer, and line pressure oriented? The axis aren't labeled in HPTuners and I'm just trying to focus on the WOT/high-torque regions. Would it be the lower right quadrant of each table?

  19. #19
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    Shift properties>Adaptive: It targets these shift times trying to keep engine RPM smooth to reduce harshness that the passengers may feel. You can cause solenoid DC to work too fast for the physical clutches, its all open loop so it doesnt correct its self.
    Slip/ torque transfer times are TOT rows, and engine RPM columns.

    Shift pressure>upshift/downshift: This is the solenoid duty cycle control based on torque input. You can command too little and not apply enough pressure to clutches, Or too much and waste time, efficiency, stress on parts. Again all open loop control.
    Clutch fill times is turbine speed(input shaft).
    Clutch tables are torque as rows, and turbine speed as columns.

    You need to watch engine RPM, turbine speed, and OSS. Keep track of when and how much the TC is slipping(engine and TSS difference) and when clutches are slipping(Ratio of TSS to OSS compared to gear). Watch solenoid duty cycle, and their ramps closely and adjust so you have enough pressure to stop slip and flares, but not have excessive DC wasting shift time.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by murfie View Post
    Slip/ torque transfer times are TOT rows, and engine RPM columns.
    Some say it's torque for rows?