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Thread: Pig rich when going WOT

  1. #1
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    Pig rich when going WOT

    I experimented last night and pulled a lot of fuel and its still going pig rich when I go WOT. Can someone point me in the right direction. Also ran out of pump... The tune is still in the rough stages.

    e40 ECM (2005 corvette)
    LS3
    Custom grind cam
    E85
    S480
    id1000s
    walbro 450 e85 pump
    stock returnless

    Kylels3turbo work tune 1.hptboostpull.hpl
    Last edited by Dude_Man; 06-25-2015 at 11:06 AM.

  2. #2
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    You're commanding a TON of fuel in the boost enrichment table. What AFR do you want? I know you're running E85, but think of the Power Enrichment and Boost Enrichment as the inverse of Lambda. IF you want Lambda 0.7, which would be 10.29 on a gasoline scale, put 1.42 in the table, which is what you have at lower pressure...but you're logging over 160 KPA when you're in boost, and at that time, you're commanding 2.0 enrichment...if you want lambda 0.75, then your target EQ ratio is 1.33....0.8 Lambda is 1.25 and so on (1 divided by Lambda).

    Now, if you're thinking on an E85 scale, stoich is different. You have it set to 19.6, and you have the injector flow rate maxed out...I know the ID1000 injectors scaled 50% should be set to 57.14 lb/hr though. After that, there are many ways to scale the tune...stoich for E85 is ~9.77, so you could multiply that by 2 (since the injector flowrate is halved) and enter 19.54.

    Your VE needs to be the same in the 105 column in both tables...you have some differences there.

    What's the target boost?...the wideband doesn't actually look pig rich at all, so I think your VE table is pretty far off.
    Last edited by MikeOD; 06-25-2015 at 12:57 PM.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    You're commanding a TON of fuel in the boost enrichment table. What AFR do you want? I know you're running E85, but think of the Power Enrichment and Boost Enrichment as the inverse of Lambda. IF you want Lambda 0.7, which would be 10.29 on a gasoline scale, put 1.42 in the table, which is what you have at lower pressure...but you're logging over 160 KPA when you're in boost, and at that time, you're commanding 2.0 enrichment...if you want lambda 0.75, then your target EQ ratio is 1.33....0.8 Lambda is 1.25 and so on (1 divided by Lambda).

    Now, if you're thinking on an E85 scale, stoich is different. You have it set to 19.6, and you have the injector flow rate maxed out...I know the ID1000 injectors scaled 50% should be set to 57.14 lb/hr though. After that, there are many ways to scale the tune...stoich for E85 is ~9.77, so you could multiply that by 2 (since the injector flowrate is halved) and enter 19.54.

    Your VE needs to be the same in the 105 column in both tables...you have some differences there.

    What's the target boost?...the wideband doesn't actually look pig rich at all, so I think your VE table is pretty far off.
    Thanks for the reply. I've tried 1.1 in lower kpa and lower rpm for pe and it still instantly goes to low 10s on the wideband, even when I'm not in boost. If I'm crushing say at 2k and got wot for a second the afr instantly goes to 10.0. According the my fuel trims under 105kpa I'm within 2-4% from what I've logged. I'll take a look at the 105 column I thought I made that change last night so they matched. I had the flow scales and was told since I'm return less that it needed to be at the 63.5 so I made the change. As for target boost, my eboost2 is saying 6.8psi but the kpa clearly isn't matching up with that. I had to change it to 2.0 because it was leaning out really bad due to the lack of fuel. In going to turn the boost down till I can my second pump added. I apologize in advance if this rely is all over the place. Typing from my phone at work under the desk haha

  4. #4
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    Don't add fuel by increasing the PE or BE number...set them to what is correct...add or pull fuel by correcting the VE table.

    Your e-boost and your MAP sensor aren't in agreement...your MAP sensor says 160+ kpa, which is 8.5 psi.

    If you've got a returnless fuel system, then your IFR table is all wrong...since you're not boost referenced.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    Don't add fuel by increasing the PE or BE number...set them to what is correct...add or pull fuel by correcting the VE table.

    Your e-boost and your MAP sensor aren't in agreement...your MAP sensor says 160+ kpa, which is 8.5 psi.

    If you've got a returnless fuel system, then your IFR table is all wrong...since you're not boost referenced.
    This is what I had originally
    57.10 57.49 57.84 58.19 58.53 58.87 59.19 59.52 59.85 60.17 60.50 60.81 61.13 61.44 61.76 62.07 62.38

  6. #6
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    The problem is in your PCM, the IFR table can't see what happens when you go into boost...and when you go into boost, your injectors essentially get smaller and smaller because your returnless system doesn't increast fuel pressure to match.

    I really think you should go to a regulator and return line system, then the flatline in the IFR table will be ok.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    The problem is in your PCM, the IFR table can't see what happens when you go into boost...and when you go into boost, your injectors essentially get smaller and smaller because your returnless system doesn't increast fuel pressure to match.

    I really think you should go to a regulator and return line system, then the flatline in the IFR table will be ok.
    I know how a return and return less style fuel systems works and it will be converted in the future. What is the correct data that should be put in the IFR table. I don't see any other data on their site for 50%

  8. #8
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    with the injector data u got from ID in the excel u can change the 100% on the left hand side to what ever scale u want and it will show u what to put in the IFR table

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    Quote Originally Posted by 07GTS View Post
    with the injector data u got from ID in the excel u can change the 100% on the left hand side to what ever scale u want and it will show u what to put in the IFR table
    Ahh that makes sense, I use a Mac to tune. I'll download excel, thanks!!

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    the ID1000 injectors scaled 50% should be set to 57.14 lb/hr though.
    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    the IFR table can't see what happens when you go into boost
    Quote Originally Posted by Dude_Man View Post
    What is the correct data that should be put in the IFR table. I don't see any other data on their site for 50%
    As I said above, ID1000's at 50% scale are 57.14 lb/hr. BUT, with a returnless fuel system, and a turbo, and your PCM, there is no "correct data" because the IFR cannot follow the manifold pressure into boost. The data will be correct any time you're not in boost...after that, it's not.

    With your returnless sytem, at 58 PSI, the ID1000 table scaled 50% would be 57.14, 57.49, 57.84, 58.19, 58.53, 58.87, 59.19, 59.52, 59.85, 60.17, 60.50, 60.81, 61.13, 61.44, 61.76, 62.07, 62.38. That'll let you get the VE table below atmospheric pressure correct...above atmospheric pressure, the VE table is going to have a sudden change in slope to accomodate for the IFR sitting locked in at 57.14 while the pressure across the injector is decreasing.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeOD View Post
    As I said above, ID1000's at 50% scale are 57.14 lb/hr. BUT, with a returnless fuel system, and a turbo, and your PCM, there is no "correct data" because the IFR cannot follow the manifold pressure into boost. The data will be correct any time you're not in boost...after that, it's not.

    With your returnless sytem, at 58 PSI, the ID1000 table scaled 50% would be 57.14, 57.49, 57.84, 58.19, 58.53, 58.87, 59.19, 59.52, 59.85, 60.17, 60.50, 60.81, 61.13, 61.44, 61.76, 62.07, 62.38. That'll let you get the VE table below atmospheric pressure correct...above atmospheric pressure, the VE table is going to have a sudden change in slope to accomodate for the IFR sitting locked in at 57.14 while the pressure across the injector is decreasing.

    That's what I copied and pasted above, that was my original data but a local tuner told me I was wrong... I thought it didn't make sense since I didn't see any mention of 63.5 on their form. Thanks again. The fuel system is going return style when I finish a few turbo kits for customers.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dude_Man View Post
    That's what I copied and pasted above, that was my original data but a local tuner told me I was wrong... I thought it didn't make sense since I didn't see any mention of 63.5 on their form. Thanks again. The fuel system is going return style when I finish a few turbo kits for customers.
    If you get the VE correct for idle/driving out of boost, then when you change the fuel system to a return with a vacuum/boost reference, and flatline the IFR, the thing should still fuel and drive great...shouldn't really need much if any attention to that. However, the VE in boost will need to decrease at that time, because the PCM will accurately know the size of the injectors at all times.
    2010 Camaro SS M6. Stock Bottom End, Heads/Cam/Intake/Headers/Exhaust.
    2005 Silverado RCSB. Forged 370 LQ9/Borg-Forced Inductions T6 S484/Jake's Stage 4 4L80E with D3 Brake/4WD.
    2023 Durango Hellcat