Anyone care to look over my current tune?

[jpb1972]

But your saying I can use the 2 bar OS with a 3 bar map and get that benefit and then set the dynamic airflow to throw it into maf?

[schpenxel]

I just changed my MAP settings for the 3 bar and converted the VE coefficients over to the ZL1 values. I do however like the features in the 2 bar OS. I'm still considering that and maybe running it in maf. In this case wouldn't I have to use bluecat to build true VE tables?

Yeah I think the custom OS's give you a normal VE table again.. the blue cat tool is pretty easy to use so you shouldn't have any trouble. It's basically just copy whatever it says to hit copy on then it spits out a real VE table with whatever break points you want. I was fortunate that my 2005 was I think one of the last ones with a regular VE table. The SUV I'm picking up Friday uses Virtual VE though so I guess I'm going to get into that world soon enough!

But your saying I can use the 2 bar OS with a 3 bar map and get that benefit and then set the dynamic airflow to throw it into maf?

Yeah you don't have to use only a 2 bar MAP with the 2 bar OS or anything like that. The MAP sensor is just going to define how much boost can actually be read.. and the OS's are just going to be how high the VE table goes basically. As long as you have a valid MAP signal and valid VE table in the areas you need, then you can use whatever combo you'd like

I happen to be running a 2.5 bar OS with a 2.5 bar MAP sensor, but it doesn't have to line up like that

[jpb1972]

Yeah I think the custom OS's give you a normal VE table again.. the blue cat tool is pretty easy to use so you shouldn't have any trouble. It's basically just copy whatever it says to hit copy on then it spits out a real VE table with whatever break points you want. I was fortunate that my 2005 was I think one of the last ones with a regular VE table. The SUV I'm picking up Friday uses Virtual VE though so I guess I'm going to get into that world soon enough!



Yeah you don't have to use only a 2 bar MAP with the 2 bar OS or anything like that. The MAP sensor is just going to define how much boost can actually be read.. and the OS's are just going to be how high the VE table goes basically. As long as you have a valid MAP signal and valid VE table in the areas you need, then you can use whatever combo you'd like

I happen to be running a 2.5 bar OS with a 2.5 bar MAP sensor, but it doesn't have to line up like that

Ok. I get that. I'm just trying to understand why others switch to SD. Is it because of the OS functions or does the car actually run any better?

[schpenxel]

Ok. I get that. I'm just trying to understand why others switch to SD. Is it because of the OS functions or does the car actually run any better?

It's debatable.... personally I think SD makes more sense on large cam'd cars but not elsewhere unless you have hit some sort of hard limit on the computer where you NEED to get rid of the MAF

The reason (in my opinion) that running SD got so popular is because no one used to have valid injector data for aftermarket injectors. The advantage of SD was there are so many cells in the VE table that you could basically bake in correction factors to wrong fuel injector data so that in the end you get proper fueling. Of course people didn't/don't know they're doing this, they were just trying to make what comes out of the tailpipe match what they want it to be. I say there's a "cell for every occasion" in the VE table.. not so much in the MAF table. If your injector data is wrong and you try to run MAF only, you'll find situations where you can't correct it. For example, maybe when you hit a certain cell in the MAF table at a high RPM/low throttle position it might be lean, then at a low rpm/high throttle position you may be in the same MAF cell, but the car may be running rich under those conditions. Good luck fixing both of those! With VE/SD you would have a different cell for each of those occassions and could tune each individually.

Personally I prefer to run both, just like the factory tune, unless there's some particular reason not to do that. Airflow via VE can be calculated more quickly during quick changes as it takes a small amount of time for the change in airflow to register on the MAF, but I still like having both. I've also always had more problems with heat soak when running SD. Every time I sit in traffic or anything like that in SD my fuel trims go way up... not so much on MAF

So.. I guess that's not a very precise answer, but that is my take on it. You can run a 2 or 3 bar OS and still use the MAF and VE, just like a stock tune, so that is probably what I would recommend if you want to spend the time on tuning both tables. That is what I'm doing now.

[jpb1972]

It's debatable.... personally I think SD makes more sense on large cam'd cars but not elsewhere unless you have hit some sort of hard limit on the computer where you NEED to get rid of the MAF

The reason (in my opinion) that running SD got so popular is because no one used to have valid injector data for aftermarket injectors. The advantage of SD was there are so many cells in the VE table that you could basically bake in correction factors to wrong fuel injector data so that in the end you get proper fueling. Of course people didn't/don't know they're doing this, they were just trying to make what comes out of the tailpipe match what they want it to be. I say there's a "cell for every occasion" in the VE table.. not so much in the MAF table. If your injector data is wrong and you try to run MAF only, you'll find situations where you can't correct it. For example, maybe when you hit a certain cell in the MAF table at a high RPM/low throttle position it might be lean, then at a low rpm/high throttle position you may be in the same MAF cell, but the car may be running rich under those conditions. Good luck fixing both of those! With VE/SD you would have a different cell for each of those occassions and could tune each individually.

Personally I prefer to run both, just like the factory tune, unless there's some particular reason not to do that. Airflow via VE can be calculated more quickly during quick changes as it takes a small amount of time for the change in airflow to register on the MAF, but I still like having both. I've also always had more problems with heat soak when running SD. Every time I sit in traffic or anything like that in SD my fuel trims go way up... not so much on MAF

So.. I guess that's not a very precise answer, but that is my take on it. You can run a 2 or 3 bar OS and still use the MAF and VE, just like a stock tune, so that is probably what I would recommend if you want to spend the time on tuning both tables. That is what I'm doing now.

Good info! So, in running both (SD and MAF) , would you have maf coming in at 4,000 or so and run on SD up to that point? From what I understand sd doesn't do as well in boosted applications or PE?
Would it even benefit me to run a 3 bar without using the custom OS?

[schpenxel]

Good info! So, in running both (SD and MAF) , would you have maf coming in at 4,000 or so and run on SD up to that point? From what I understand sd doesn't do as well in boosted applications or PE?
Would it even benefit me to run a 3 bar without using the custom OS?

Not really.. there's no VE table data above I think it's 105kpa, so a 3 bar MAP wouldn't really do anything without one of the customs OS's. Maybe that's different on the virtual VE setups but I don't think so..

The exception being if you're using something like dash logic to display boost on the DIC or HUD.. for that to work you need a MAP sensor capable of reading boost and the OS on the car's computer doesn't matter

Yeah I'd do around 4000 like stock

[jpb1972]

SCHPENXEL

Did some histogram logging yesterday. Had a crash course in math last night (guess that's why I have a headache this morning) from adjusting the maf values. After I figured out (with a lot of help) how to calculate the change in values it all came together.
Decided to stay with the stock OS and MAP for now and see how she runs. Thanks for your help with this! Couldn't have done it without members willing to take the time to help the clueless.

From what I've read, about half a point AFR buffer can be sufficient for Methanol (I don't know how accurate this info is), depending on how precise you want to get and the settings on your Alky unit itself. Been tweaking my PE fuel a little bit as well.

Doesn't look like I will be test driving today unless it dries up. I will let you know what I end up with.

[schpenxel]

SCHPENXEL

Did some histogram logging yesterday. Had a crash course in math last night (guess that's why I have a headache this morning) from adjusting the maf values. After I figured out (with a lot of help) how to calculate the change in values it all came together.
Decided to stay with the stock OS and MAP for now and see how she runs. Thanks for your help with this! Couldn't have done it without members willing to take the time to help the clueless.

From what I've read, about half a point AFR buffer can be sufficient for Methanol (I don't know how accurate this info is), depending on how precise you want to get and the settings on your Alky unit itself. Been tweaking my PE fuel a little bit as well.

Doesn't look like I will be test driving today unless it dries up. I will let you know what I end up with.

Good to know! I need to do some more research on meth.. I also need to install my IAT (using one in MAF right now). I'm thinking about putting it on the side of the intake.. that seems like a pretty clean place to put it

[jpb1972]

Good to know! I need to do some more research on meth.. I also need to install my IAT (using one in MAF right now). I'm thinking about putting it on the side of the intake.. that seems like a pretty clean place to put it

Yea, I'm seeing anywhere from 1/2 to a full point afr when meth Is spraying. I would say .75 richer on avg. You will see it in the logs when you start spraying.

I'm having an issue with my Alky kit spraying late after the first gear wot, 2nd and 3rd gear are fine. Been talking with Julio trying to get it figured out. I would have never known if it wasn't for data logging.

Did you see the pics I posted of my iat sensor? I know some guys do put them directly in the intake.

[schpenxel]

Yea, I'm seeing anywhere from 1/2 to a full point afr when meth Is spraying. I would say .75 richer on avg. You will see it in the logs when you start spraying.

I'm having an issue with my Alky kit spraying late after the first gear wot, 2nd and 3rd gear are fine. Been talking with Julio trying to get it figured out. I would have never known if it wasn't for data logging.

Did you see the pics I posted of my iat sensor? I know some guys do put them directly in the intake.

Good to know.. I need to replace my wideband sensor so I've been taking it easy for now. I feel like I'm flying blind without it. Hopefully I can change that out tomorrow though..

Yeah looks like you're using a rubber grommet on yours? I also noticed you have two IAT sensors? Or am I misunderstanding?

I bought one of the 3/8" threaded sensors and a bung and was originally going to have the bung welded to the intake pipe, but there's very little room to work with. I'm starting to think drilling a hole on the passenger side of the intake manifold will work out better. I should be able to make it slightly smaller than the start of the IAT sensor then thread the sensor in with some sealant on it and it should seal up fine I think. Now I just need to find the right size drill bit and hope it doesn't pour down rain all day tomorrow.

[jpb1972]

Good to know.. I need to replace my wideband sensor so I've been taking it easy for now. I feel like I'm flying blind without it. Hopefully I can change that out tomorrow though..

Yeah looks like you're using a rubber grommet on yours? I also noticed you have two IAT sensors? Or am I misunderstanding?

I bought one of the 3/8" threaded sensors and a bung and was originally going to have the bung welded to the intake pipe, but there's very little room to work with. I'm starting to think drilling a hole on the passenger side of the intake manifold will work out better. I should be able to make it slightly smaller than the start of the IAT sensor then thread the sensor in with some sealant on it and it should seal up fine I think. Now I just need to find the right size drill bit and hope it doesn't pour down rain all day tomorrow.

If your going to do it that way, I would use a thread tap at least. I wouldn't want to rely on a sealant for a good seal, if you know what I mean.
I have two because I also have an AFR gauge on the dash that also shows my IAT. So one sensor is for the gauge, the other for the cars system.

[schpenxel]

If your going to do it that way, I would use a thread tap at least. I wouldn't want to rely on a sealant for a good seal, if you know what I mean.
I have two because I also have an AFR gauge on the dash that also shows my IAT. So one sensor is for the gauge, the other for the cars system.

After I thought about it some more I decided to order the right size drill bit & a proper NPT tap so I could do it right..

What car are you tuning btw? I'm using a product call dash logic which is pretty awesome if your car is supported. It will show whatever PID, etc. on the DIC (or HUD if you have that). I really like it because it's so customizable and you don't have to add a gauge pod or anything. I have it showing commanded lambda, actual lambda, knock retard and boost all on the DIC right now.

Oh here's a pretty neat read I found earlier that explains a good bit more on how meth/water injection actually helps keep things cool, flame travel speeds vs. AFR, ignition timing, etc. I can't vouch for it all being 100% correct but it does make sense to me.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php

[jpb1972]

After I thought about it some more I decided to order the right size drill bit & a proper NPT tap so I could do it right..

What car are you tuning btw? I'm using a product call dash logic which is pretty awesome if your car is supported. It will show whatever PID, etc. on the DIC (or HUD if you have that). I really like it because it's so customizable and you don't have to add a gauge pod or anything. I have it showing commanded lambda, actual lambda, knock retard and boost all on the DIC right now.

Oh here's a pretty neat read I found earlier that explains a good bit more on how meth/water injection actually helps keep things cool, flame travel speeds vs. AFR, ignition timing, etc. I can't vouch for it all being 100% correct but it does make sense to me.

http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/resources/rich.php

Tuning a 2011 camaro ls3.
I had heard of the dash logic and have been wanting to do some research on it. That sounds quite awesome really.
I do have the HUD, do you know if it's compatible with my car?
As far as your IAT sensor, that's a good idea. Think you'll be much happier with the end result.
Let me know how you make out with it. I will check out the innovate article, sounds interesting.

[jpb1972]

Also, a little something I figured out (all on my own lol). Went into my WB PID and my afr error PID and added values so my data log info would read correct for E10 afr of 14.13. So my afr error % and actual afr on the log are correct for 14.13 afr. The figures seem to be accurate. It takes the guesswork out of the equation.

[schpenxel]

Also, a little something I figured out (all on my own lol). Went into my WB PID and my afr error PID and added values so my data log info would read correct for E10 afr of 14.13. So my afr error % and actual afr on the log are correct for 14.13 afr. The figures seem to be accurate. It takes the guesswork out of the equation.

Be careful... this is why I always work in Lambda instead of AFR. It gets way too confusing trying to use AFR with all the different fuel blends out there.

Your wideband (and almost all for that matter) actually read in units of Lambda. Lambda of 1 = stoich. There is a setting on the wideband where you have to tell it what stoich is for whatever fuel you're running. Then it just multiplies the lambda reading x whatever stoich factor it's been told to use. If you haven't changed this setting, then it will not read 14.13 when running @ stoich with E10. It will read 14.7 no matter what fuel you have in there (at stoich)

Example: If you put E85 in it right now, and got it to run at stoich, it would show 14.7:1 on the gauge (unless you've changed the setting on the wideband itself, not in HP Tuners). Put in E10.. same thing. It will read 14.7:1 @ stoich even though that's not really what you'd be running.

[schpenxel]

Tuning a 2011 camaro ls3.
I had heard of the dash logic and have been wanting to do some research on it. That sounds quite awesome really.
I do have the HUD, do you know if it's compatible with my car?
As far as your IAT sensor, that's a good idea. Think you'll be much happier with the end result.
Let me know how you make out with it. I will check out the innovate article, sounds interesting.

Yep! It should work on that one and says it will show up on the DIC, HUD and Radio bezel?

http://www.palmerperformance.com/sto...hp?cPath=32_38

[jpb1972]

Be careful... this is why I always work in Lambda instead of AFR. It gets way too confusing trying to use AFR with all the different fuel blends out there.

Your wideband (and almost all for that matter) actually read in units of Lambda. Lambda of 1 = stoich. There is a setting on the wideband where you have to tell it what stoich is for whatever fuel you're running. Then it just multiplies the lambda reading x whatever stoich factor it's been told to use. If you haven't changed this setting, then it will not read 14.13 when running @ stoich with E10. It will read 14.7 no matter what fuel you have in there (at stoich)

Example: If you put E85 in it right now, and got it to run at stoich, it would show 14.7:1 on the gauge (unless you've changed the setting on the wideband itself, not in HP Tuners). Put in E10.. same thing. It will read 14.7:1 @ stoich even though that's not really what you'd be running.

Correct. The gauge on my dash will only read 14.7, even though I was able to go into the settings and change the fuel setting to 14.13. However, I didn't see any change in the way HPT reported my afr. I'm using the second output from my innovate LC-2. Should HPT have worked that way?

[jpb1972]

Here's what I did.

[jpb1972]

Yep! It should work on that one and says it will show up on the DIC, HUD and Radio bezel?

http://www.palmerperformance.com/sto...hp?cPath=32_38

Thanks

[schpenxel]

Here' what I did.

I'll have to think about that one!