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Thread: Throttle tuning Ford

  1. #41
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    The throttle body model is what is used to calculate engine torque based on load. It has a relationship to the calculated torque tables by using MBT Maximum brake torque spark, stoic, and 100*IAT/200*ECT temperature instead of actual values. So they should be close but the scheduled torque will be a higher value than ETC torque as MBT is usually impossible to reach before knock. Getting your ETC torque dialed in so that spark advance follows your borderline spark values after disabling spark modifiers is a another method you can use if your fueling is good and your temperatures are not too far off. The DD table tells the TB model how much torque to make, more and less, so they need to be able to agree with each other. Dialing in your calculated torque tables/inverse is based on MBT so its basically get your IPC error as little as possible. Any modification you make will affect all the other tables. Not so that you have to go around and modify every table , but it gives you many ways to go about it.

  2. #42
    If you have correct data, this is last to modify, if you don't, it's first
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  3. #43
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    Ok i think i understand the reason you went this route is because you didnt have the right effective table. If you did have the right published data looks like dialing in torque tables would be the way to go? Pretty much whatever tables that you have that you know are good you can go to the unknown tables and adjust to dial it back in correct?

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Devildog1325 View Post
    Ok i think i understand the reason you went this route is because you didnt have the right effective table. If you did have the right published data looks like dialing in torque tables would be the way to go? Pretty much whatever tables that you have that you know are good you can go to the unknown tables and adjust to dial it back in correct?
    Correct. usually effective table should work as copied, but in case of gt350 throttle body it don't. It's first time i had to adjust it.
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  5. #45
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    Has anyone logged the predicted area on a supercharged car, under WOT at high revs the numbers are huge, my thought is that is the size the engine thinks the throttle must be to flow that volume. It does not seem to matter as once WOT is entered the error checking switches off but I did think this might be how the blowthrough slope comes into play, even though the throttle is not blowthrough it far exceeds its flow potential compared to NA.
    Last edited by 4wheelinls1; 12-14-2017 at 11:23 PM.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by 4wheelinls1 View Post
    Has anyone logged the predicted area on a supercharged car, under WOT at high revs the numbers are huge, my thought is that is the size the engine thinks the throttle must be to flow that volume. It does not seem to matter as once WOT is entered the error checking switches off but I did think this might be how the blowthrough slope comes into play, even though the throttle is not blowthrough it far exceeds its flow potential compared to NA.
    This blows up because the ECU thinks the throttle is between the manifold and barometric pressure.
    Your manifold is now boosted, so its thinking it has to somehow get enough throttle area to flow air upstream.. Obviously the model breaks down (not possible).

    Ever driven a car that was factory NA, now with a blower, part-throttle boost, and realized it really sucks until you go WOT? This is why.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by caniggia View Post
    Here is how to tune Driver Demand Engine:
    http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...254#post297254

    For new throttle effective area is needed. For gt500 TB you can find in any GT500 tune, I have also KB stage 2 130mm (attached).
    If You don't have it, You have to play, but with method below playing both tables, effective area should be found too.
    Ford Racing 62mm per Ford instruction don't need tune, so it works with 4.6 Effective area table (Not GT500), but as Effective area can be left alone, then predicted throttle could be adjusted.

    This table has to be adjusted after cam installation, turbo, supercharger, wihout it, car will drive good, but could do that better.
    Unfortunately it's not possible to do that without SCT logging. Take a look, that X Axis in Predicted throttle is wrong named, this should be ETC Area Opening, not Baro..

    Max throttle angle in ETC effective area on X axis must be same value as in last column of predicted area and vice versa (as You can see this in stock tune). Max angle You can log, GT500 for eg has not 82 max angle.
    I attached also SCT histo for log.
    You need to log Effective area by ETC for X, ETC Manifold vacuum for Y and wheel torque error.
    Goal is to get wheel tq error close to zero and IPC sum to low values. After it's done, You can set wheel tq error max to normal values.

    Easy check if throttle is good calibrated is to slowly increase RPMS on idle, if You can stop every 100rpm, then it's probably good. If You can't hold or quick adjust RPM's You want, then it's wrong.
    Attachment 43631Attachment 43632
    Im really not understanding what your saying here, maybe the english isnt helping but I cant understan what you are saying. Tried slowly increasing rpms, but I can only get idle, 1400 rpm and 2200 rpm with ever so slight pedal increases so Im thinking the mapping is off. It looks like you are saying make table with ETC Effective Throttle Area as X axis, ETC Manifold Vac as Y access, and log IPC Wheel Tq Error? Can set IPC WTError to normal values when done, what did you set it to to begin with? Its 18,000 in this tune. Your trying to get IPC error to 0, but what are you changing to do this?
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  8. #48
    It's correct, this is how to tune predicted throttle, but take a look at my another post that explain it more and explain how to tune effective area table:

    https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...l=1#post468569
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  9. #49
    Advanced Tuner 4wheelinls1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven@HPTuners View Post
    This blows up because the ECU thinks the throttle is between the manifold and barometric pressure.
    Your manifold is now boosted, so its thinking it has to somehow get enough throttle area to flow air upstream.. Obviously the model breaks down (not possible).

    Ever driven a car that was factory NA, now with a blower, part-throttle boost, and realized it really sucks until you go WOT? This is why.
    This makes sense and was what I was assuming with my post, so is it acceptable to correct the effective throttle area with numbers that are logged (which is not really possible due to the scale anyway), it would be good if the scale ETC vacuum went into negative values so the effective area could have an axis that did not flat line at barometric pressure.

  10. #50
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    I just noticed the ecoboost PCM has 7.5 or 8.5 in^2 for effective throttle even though it has a 68 or 70mm throttle body. Maybe we can plug similar data in for our boosted applications and make slight adjustments to the model to correct for slightly positive pressures in the intake before TB. I noticed the more vac, the more effective area for a given angle - my assumption is that the pressure differential is the cause of this, so we should actually see less of a difference depending on the actual pressure at the TB inlet depending if your BOV or BPV is open or closed.

    Just food for thought. I think a properly cal'd MAF, then speed density using MAP, rpm & load, then fine tune TB and you should have a nice drivable N/A to boosted car right?

  11. #51
    In 4.6 yes, 5.0 11-14 maybe, 15 up no, much more complicated, part boost is the problem

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by 4wheelinls1 View Post
    This makes sense and was what I was assuming with my post, so is it acceptable to correct the effective throttle area with numbers that are logged (which is not really possible due to the scale anyway), it would be good if the scale ETC vacuum went into negative values so the effective area could have an axis that did not flat line at barometric pressure.
    ETC Vacuum could not be negative in the true sense, though I see nothing clipping it inthe ECU so you could theoretically do so. Its the amount of pressure drop over the throttle. A negative pressure would imply that pressure increases over the throttle body. This would imply flow reversal, as air will move from high pressure to low pressure. This isn't what's actually happening, and the ECU assumes throttle flow from inlet to outlet always, so its throttle airflow is always inlet to outlet.
    The only correct solution is to correct the pressure across the throttle to be what it actually is. Everything else is hacking the throttle body model.

    Roush Supercharged OS's for example are specially compiled to use Ford's supercharger logic which accounts for this. You have an additional "Supercharger Inlet Pressure" (SIP) term, so a PD Blower which has the throttle right before the supercharger inlet uses SIP instead of MAP. I.e. the throttle is between Baro and SIP.

    On Turbo or Centri Blower applications, now you specifically need a sensor for TIP as it can now be boosted, so the assumption its Baro breaks down.

    Proper ETC control requires knowing the pressure ratio over the throttle. Every OEM ETC model I have seen relies on it. The same issue happens to guys over in Dodge land when they put a blower on their NA vehicle. Part throttle boost suddenly sucks. WOT doesnt suck because their ECU forces the throttle all the way open regardless. Ford can be configured to do this as well with the Pedal Pos WOT Start and Pedal Pos WOT End values, which a lot of Mustangs already use, so your WOT is probably fine too.

    If you want to figure out a way to "hack" it, you have consider what the ECU model uses as input is basically a pressure drop or pressure ratio (or both in Fords case)

    ETC Vacuum = Throttle Inlet - Throttle Outlet (unless you have sonic airflow, then its Throttle Inlet - Sonic Pressure. This happens when the pressure ratio I define below is >1.893 or so)
    ETC PRatio = Throttle Inlet/Throttle Outlet

    So now we need to think what pressures are inlet/outlet:
    NA
    Throttle Inlet = Baro - drop over intake system
    Throttle Outlet = MAP

    Positive Displacement Blower
    Throttle Inlet = Baro - drop over intake system
    Throttle Outlet = SIP

    Centri Blower / Turbocharger
    Throttle Inlet = boosted throttle inlet from output of blower/turbo
    Throttle Outlet = MAP

    Because you're adding a blower to an NA vehicle, what the ECU thinks is pressure ratio as Baro / MAP, and during part throttle boost when ETC is still in a closed loop control, the output pressure ratio you get is much different than actuality, and the "ETC Vacuum" would be indeed negative.
    You'd have to correct the ETC PR function (which is actually an equation based on the actual physics, but you could hack it up and cheat the physics), and maybe add negative ETC vacuums to your throttle body model.

    You'd have to measure of a mapping from your true PR to the ECU calculated PR, and true ETC vacuum to ECU calculated vacuum to try to populate these consistently. The issue is I don't believe there is a 1 to 1 mapping for this, i.e. multiple true PR/true Vacuums will map to the same ECU calculated value.

    Can you correct? Maybe. I can't think of a good way to do it.
    Instead calibrations for Whipple/Roush kits use operating systems/strategies that use the correct pressures instead (i.e. a Ford supercharged operating system which can infer Supercharger Inlet Pressure based on airflow).
    If its not broke, just give it time.

  13. #53
    Advanced Tuner 4wheelinls1's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven@HPTuners View Post
    ETC Vacuum could not be negative in the true sense, though I see nothing clipping it inthe ECU so you could theoretically do so. Its the amount of pressure drop over the throttle. A negative pressure would imply that pressure increases over the throttle body. This would imply flow reversal, as air will move from high pressure to low pressure. This isn't what's actually happening, and the ECU assumes throttle flow from inlet to outlet always, so its throttle airflow is always inlet to outlet.
    The only correct solution is to correct the pressure across the throttle to be what it actually is. Everything else is hacking the throttle body model.

    Roush Supercharged OS's for example are specially compiled to use Ford's supercharger logic which accounts for this. You have an additional "Supercharger Inlet Pressure" (SIP) term, so a PD Blower which has the throttle right before the supercharger inlet uses SIP instead of MAP. I.e. the throttle is between Baro and SIP.

    On Turbo or Centri Blower applications, now you specifically need a sensor for TIP as it can now be boosted, so the assumption its Baro breaks down.

    Proper ETC control requires knowing the pressure ratio over the throttle. Every OEM ETC model I have seen relies on it. The same issue happens to guys over in Dodge land when they put a blower on their NA vehicle. Part throttle boost suddenly sucks. WOT doesnt suck because their ECU forces the throttle all the way open regardless. Ford can be configured to do this as well with the Pedal Pos WOT Start and Pedal Pos WOT End values, which a lot of Mustangs already use, so your WOT is probably fine too.

    If you want to figure out a way to "hack" it, you have consider what the ECU model uses as input is basically a pressure drop or pressure ratio (or both in Fords case)

    ETC Vacuum = Throttle Inlet - Throttle Outlet (unless you have sonic airflow, then its Throttle Inlet - Sonic Pressure. This happens when the pressure ratio I define below is >1.893 or so)
    ETC PRatio = Throttle Inlet/Throttle Outlet

    So now we need to think what pressures are inlet/outlet:
    NA
    Throttle Inlet = Baro - drop over intake system
    Throttle Outlet = MAP

    Positive Displacement Blower
    Throttle Inlet = Baro - drop over intake system
    Throttle Outlet = SIP

    Centri Blower / Turbocharger
    Throttle Inlet = boosted throttle inlet from output of blower/turbo
    Throttle Outlet = MAP

    Because you're adding a blower to an NA vehicle, what the ECU thinks is pressure ratio as Baro / MAP, and during part throttle boost when ETC is still in a closed loop control, the output pressure ratio you get is much different than actuality, and the "ETC Vacuum" would be indeed negative.
    You'd have to correct the ETC PR function (which is actually an equation based on the actual physics, but you could hack it up and cheat the physics), and maybe add negative ETC vacuums to your throttle body model.

    You'd have to measure of a mapping from your true PR to the ECU calculated PR, and true ETC vacuum to ECU calculated vacuum to try to populate these consistently. The issue is I don't believe there is a 1 to 1 mapping for this, i.e. multiple true PR/true Vacuums will map to the same ECU calculated value.

    Can you correct? Maybe. I can't think of a good way to do it.
    Instead calibrations for Whipple/Roush kits use operating systems/strategies that use the correct pressures instead (i.e. a Ford supercharged operating system which can infer Supercharger Inlet Pressure based on airflow).
    I have not tried a Rouche/Whipple strategy in an NA car, is that stable? From the reports I'v heard the Whipple vehicle has poor drive ability anyway. The problems I'm experiencing are very minor.

  14. #54
    OK, i will tell ya what to do in 2015 supercharger cars and your all part throttle problems will gone. Put pedal pos start as low as 30 and end as 70.
    You can adjust start to the point where boost starts, in 8-10 psi roush, vmp it's around 30. Once it's done and pedal pos goes above 30 car is ignoring partially driver demand and after 70 it ignores it completly. All your part throttle boost gone completly. After it's done, fine tune torque tables and all other needed things.
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  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by caniggia View Post
    OK, i will tell ya what to do in 2015 supercharger cars and your all part throttle problems will gone. Put pedal pos start as low as 30 and end as 70.
    You can adjust start to the point where boost starts, in 8-10 psi roush, vmp it's around 30. Once it's done and pedal pos goes above 30 car is ignoring partially driver demand and after 70 it ignores it completly. All your part throttle boost gone completly. After it's done, fine tune torque tables and all other needed things.
    I have been doing a similar thing and lowering the WOT pedal start, I am noticing with higher boost levels the entry level just gets lower and lower, playing up to 12 psi but 14 psi to come. Really just frustrating as it feels like a work around not a cure but it may be what we are limited to without an operating system upgrade. I find at 28% pedal i need to start entering WOT or the throttle becomes less responsive to small increases in pedal, if the pedal entry is too high the throttle then moves rapidly once the pedal hits the threshold which is not great.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steven@HPTuners View Post
    ETC Vacuum could not be negative in the true sense, though I see nothing clipping it inthe ECU so you could theoretically do so. Its the amount of pressure drop over the throttle. A negative pressure would imply that pressure increases over the throttle body. This would imply flow reversal, as air will move from high pressure to low pressure. This isn't what's actually happening, and the ECU assumes throttle flow from inlet to outlet always, so its throttle airflow is always inlet to outlet.
    The only correct solution is to correct the pressure across the throttle to be what it actually is. Everything else is hacking the throttle body model.

    Roush Supercharged OS's for example are specially compiled to use Ford's supercharger logic which accounts for this. You have an additional "Supercharger Inlet Pressure" (SIP) term, so a PD Blower which has the throttle right before the supercharger inlet uses SIP instead of MAP. I.e. the throttle is between Baro and SIP.

    On Turbo or Centri Blower applications, now you specifically need a sensor for TIP as it can now be boosted, so the assumption its Baro breaks down.

    Proper ETC control requires knowing the pressure ratio over the throttle. Every OEM ETC model I have seen relies on it. The same issue happens to guys over in Dodge land when they put a blower on their NA vehicle. Part throttle boost suddenly sucks. WOT doesnt suck because their ECU forces the throttle all the way open regardless. Ford can be configured to do this as well with the Pedal Pos WOT Start and Pedal Pos WOT End values, which a lot of Mustangs already use, so your WOT is probably fine too.

    If you want to figure out a way to "hack" it, you have consider what the ECU model uses as input is basically a pressure drop or pressure ratio (or both in Fords case)

    ETC Vacuum = Throttle Inlet - Throttle Outlet (unless you have sonic airflow, then its Throttle Inlet - Sonic Pressure. This happens when the pressure ratio I define below is >1.893 or so)
    ETC PRatio = Throttle Inlet/Throttle Outlet

    So now we need to think what pressures are inlet/outlet:
    NA
    Throttle Inlet = Baro - drop over intake system
    Throttle Outlet = MAP

    Positive Displacement Blower
    Throttle Inlet = Baro - drop over intake system
    Throttle Outlet = SIP

    Centri Blower / Turbocharger
    Throttle Inlet = boosted throttle inlet from output of blower/turbo
    Throttle Outlet = MAP

    Because you're adding a blower to an NA vehicle, what the ECU thinks is pressure ratio as Baro / MAP, and during part throttle boost when ETC is still in a closed loop control, the output pressure ratio you get is much different than actuality, and the "ETC Vacuum" would be indeed negative.
    You'd have to correct the ETC PR function (which is actually an equation based on the actual physics, but you could hack it up and cheat the physics), and maybe add negative ETC vacuums to your throttle body model.

    You'd have to measure of a mapping from your true PR to the ECU calculated PR, and true ETC vacuum to ECU calculated vacuum to try to populate these consistently. The issue is I don't believe there is a 1 to 1 mapping for this, i.e. multiple true PR/true Vacuums will map to the same ECU calculated value.

    Can you correct? Maybe. I can't think of a good way to do it.
    Instead calibrations for Whipple/Roush kits use operating systems/strategies that use the correct pressures instead (i.e. a Ford supercharged operating system which can infer Supercharger Inlet Pressure based on airflow).
    Isn't negative vacuum just pressure? If we had negative vacuum(pressure) on the outside of the blade that would be similar to a blowthrough throttle configuration therefor providing the correct PR(theoretical if not actual) across the blade and then the correct flow without having to have crazy throttle area predictions. I am unsure as to why this would be flow reversal as the flow is still from high to low just that high is not Baro anymore its pressure?? The current software does not allow for negative vacuum on the effective area (44364) ETC vacuum axis.

    Could that be changed if there is no hard limit in the ecu as I would like to try it.

  17. #57
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    I was wondering about somehow plumbing a pressure reference from the intake side (before throttle body) to the barometric pressure side for centri/turbo applications - then all data used by ford for TB "should" be applicable.

    Another thing you *might* be able to do is if you know that the intake pressure is higher for higher TB angles (turbo), you might be able to change the effective area to something slightly higher as it actually IS a higher effective area given TB angle. This higher effective area is due to larger pressure difference across TB and the factory tables say this in stock TB cals.
    Last edited by aksubiedubie; 01-15-2018 at 01:13 PM. Reason: oops

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by 4wheelinls1 View Post
    Isn't negative vacuum just pressure? If we had negative vacuum(pressure) on the outside of the blade that would be similar to a blowthrough throttle configuration therefor providing the correct PR(theoretical if not actual) across the blade and then the correct flow without having to have crazy throttle area predictions. I am unsure as to why this would be flow reversal as the flow is still from high to low just that high is not Baro anymore its pressure?? The current software does not allow for negative vacuum on the effective area (44364) ETC vacuum axis.

    Could that be changed if there is no hard limit in the ecu as I would like to try it.
    Yes, but this is MANIFOLD vacuum, so if we had "negative" vacuum, we'd have pressure on the manifold side higher than throttle inlet side, and air would flow in reverse. What the ECU is seeing is MAP > Baro. Baro is throttle inlet, and manifold is at higher pressure, so air logically would flow from the manifold out to before the throttle. Ford doesn't model this situation in its throttle control because it wouldn't be a very good throttle if it was letting air the wrong way.

    Point is, you have to work around the fact it thinks its Baro/MAP instead of Boosted Prethrottle/MAP.
    The axis override is a known bug we'll hopefully get resolved soon so that you can insert negative values in there.
    If its not broke, just give it time.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by caniggia View Post
    OK, i will tell ya what to do in 2015 supercharger cars and your all part throttle problems will gone. Put pedal pos start as low as 30 and end as 70.
    You can adjust start to the point where boost starts, in 8-10 psi roush, vmp it's around 30. Once it's done and pedal pos goes above 30 car is ignoring partially driver demand and after 70 it ignores it completly. All your part throttle boost gone completly. After it's done, fine tune torque tables and all other needed things.
    Trying that on Roush blower 2015 car. Should I also disable the Tip In tq management right below there because these things make instant torque?
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  20. #60
    I always disable this. After you do this, you can fine tune how car reacts by adjusting predicted throttle and/or ETC PR filtering to smooth into boost transition. With this adjusted you can drive part boost and it drives lot better than roush OS which has only full boost at full throttle. You can also change vacuum reference for bypass valve to manifold AFTER supercharger, not before.
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