LNF TUNERS: Learn, share and make hp HERE!

[gmtech16450yz]

i agree the one thing i feel i know jack shit about is cam timing and no matter who or how i ask people put that shit on top secret. i just want a how to so i can move them for myself and see whats going on ect...

why cant people help those who spend hours trying to understand, we are obviously putting in an asston of time to understand whats going on and if we can also understand then we can share other ideas to try.....


is that way out of line...i dont think so

Nope, that's not out of line at all! Cam timing is a good example, my guess is the guys that have time to post on here don't know that much about cam timing. It takes a lot of understanding of basic engine operation and tuning to be able to know what cam timing really does and what it effects. That and a ton of experience actually changing it. On top of that, even if you have the knowledge and experience, half of what you know about cam timing gets thrown out the window when you're talking about Turbos and Direct Injection.

It's also the guys that DO understand that stuff I'm trying to get in here. I know they're out there, but I rarely if ever see any of those guys post on here. There's a ton more super knowledgeable guys on the other platforms, a lot of the problem is these LNF's just aren't that popular. Still, why don't we see Vince in here, or ZZP, DDM, Werks, Hahn, EIEIO or whoever? I know they read some of this stuff, quite honestly they'd be stupid not to. There is information here no matter how much you already know or think you know. How come they don't jump into some of the questions or discussions here? Do they just come here to see what we've figured out and not contribute anything back?

[Pandion]

I agree with you---^ except that would suck if threads like this were locked down for "professional Tuners" cause I only tune my own car. Honestly if it weren't for this forum I would have never bought HPtuners cause this is the only forum I trust for information. I don't know anyone who tunes so I go small steps at a time and try to learn things on my own before asking about it here.

[Iam Broke]

Never understood cam timing, let alone on the LNF. Moved it a few degrees based on what others tried (John, David & Nick) and settled on what gave me the best results. I always appreciate your views John.

Next year I may get another LNF to play with. A Solstice Coupe would be sweet.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

see i can move my cams but i need to flow my experimental ported head out im only gettin 28 ve i can barely spin second and its running like 26-30 psi im still moving the wastegate to rope that in but flowing it out would be a huge help.

i do know that when i have done some porsche cams you move the intake and exhaust equally till you dont make any more power then you move one cam at a time to fine tune those power sections. but since this platform is so freakin weired and others apparently know more, id like help on learning and knowing what these motors tend to like best. more intake or exhaust or a little of both. this would help my experimental head tuning so much more. i feel bad for porting it and trying something new......like i bring it up and everyone is like silent either waiting or not wanting to help but honestly if i can get my head to make some power over stock then maybe i have found something new to share with people, you know.

and the only cars i tune are my own lnf, my uncles ls7 corvette, and cousins lsj cobalt its not like im out here to steal tunes for other people.
as a matter of fact i dont tune anyone else all i do is help them set up their vcm scanners and explain how the tables work and act more as a guide that way i have taught someone instead of giving them a fast car while they still have no idea whats going on. i feel better after teaching them.

Nick, David, John, Bill = Respect and i have much of all of you. thanks for helping this platform grow

[JoshMass]

The biggest thing that helped me understand the cam timing, before I got on the dyno and played with it, was watching this video put out by Ben Strader at EFI University.

http://www.efi101.com/online_courses.html

Totally worth the $49 IMO.

[JoshMass]

Either the guys that are doing LNF tunes for money don't really know much, aren't making any new discoveries or they're scared to put those discoveries out there in public for people to see. I'm guessing it's a little of all three of those.

The more I discover the more I realize that this statement is absolutely on target. I have used all the major LNF threads to learn as much as possible but mainly so that I can be an educated consumer. I don't tune professionally but I like to know what the people I pay to do that are supposedly doing. In comparing my results to others I can get a feel for who truly has a grasp on this stuff and who doesn't.

Based purely on my own observations I'll go out on a limb here and say that the "professional tuners", that do not specialize in this platform, don't spend the time necessary to figure it out at all. They're too busy with other work to take the time to learn it and, instead, rely on those of us who do.

While I don't think this is necessarily "wrong", I do think that the tuner should be up front with the customer and acknowledge it beforehand. In my case, this is exactly what happened. I don't pay for tuning but, instead, work with him in researching and discovering how the ECU works and how to make the necessary adjustments to the tune for the modifications we've made. We then bounce ideas off of each other and test things out.

As a side note, the major tuning schools out there do not cover direct injection either. I've completed the ACP course at EFI University and it was all based on port fuel injection. I've also completed the Beginner GM HP Tuner Course from the Tuning School. They don't offer a package on LNF-based cars yet either. I've been told it's coming but we all know what that means

As direct injection becomes more of a focus by the OEM's we'll see a shift in the attitudes of the tuning community as well. I see it as the same type of transition from carbs to EFI.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

The biggest thing that helped me understand the cam timing, before I got on the dyno and played with it, was watching this video put out by Ben Strader at EFI University.

http://www.efi101.com/online_courses.html

Totally worth the $49 IMO.

watched and it was exactly as i thought. although i really do want the lnf to be a realtime ecu like a motec now. id have my car on a steady state dyno in a heartbeat. if we had the capability to do realtime adjustments, it would be so much easier. get them close as shit on the solid state then fine adjust the pulls and optimize turbo spool with the exhaust cam. not to mention the gains to made in gas mileage by solid state tuning the midrange for the most torque. oh man the possibilities..........

i officially wish for: REALTIME TUNING ON THE LNF PLATFORM
i would once again be in love with my car

[silverbullet08]

Either the guys that are doing LNF tunes for money don't really know much, aren't making any new discoveries or they're scared to put those discoveries out there in public for people to see. I'm guessing it's a little of all three of those.

I understand this point of view. And personally have not put up quiet a few things because there is more to it than just a one table change to make it all work right, and if you dont know what your doing you will destroy things. Just as I Pm'd you about your "discovery" you claimed on another thread. I believe it was about steady timing or something down low or getting actual commanded idr, either way you were acting like one of these people you claim needs "thicker skin". You seemed all hyped up about it so I plain out asked you whats the deal on it? I was having a issue with one of my cars getting random timing droops and made a post about it with a log and no one else knew anything about it. IAB just stated his car didnt do that and to bump it up down lower a little... This forum is for these types of issues and discoveries so we all who purchased this software and know how or want to learn to tune can actually learn and help each other out!
On the other hand, yes there should be a seperate section for the people that do tune for a living or have a shop. This way the new b average joe cant jump up and grab a tune or ideas that one of these knowledgable tuners have been working at for some time. No one just wants to give thier work away. I started a thread a while back on trying to get my car to run full E right after we got all the new tables. BYT came in there and smacked me around a little on a few things that got me in the right direction but never just gave me the answer.. I worked out the little issues myself and personally would not just give that out to any random person either. Gmtech i did use some ideas from your cam timing tables you put up, but the ones i use look completly different... I guarantee you, you can pull a tune on some of the LNFs running around and youll find number for number matched tables to those posted thoughout the forum. Ive seen it myself doing a retune for some one down here that lost #2 to a bad tune "30psi spike, 8*-9* kr normal driving".... Its like they flashed it and said have fun!
So thought id throw my input out there as well and give a little credit to those who deserved it

[Mongorat427]

I just changed my ring and pinion in my F35 from 3.82 to 4.45 Is this where I change it. Or do I have to make some other change.

[silverbullet08]

hmm never thought about that. I guess that would be the only table you could directly adjust, I wonder what effects this will have on the tune or will adjusting this recaliberate every other table? This is a load based ECM...

[gmtech16450yz]

Added a couple links on the first page, nothing too exciting, just ones that we've been talking about recently.

Sorry I kinda neglected this thread, I'll try to sit down and put some new stuff together. There's a bunch of stuff I'd like to share, they're just not the kinds of things that would be quick and easy to explain. I'm being pulled in 6 different directions right now though, not sure which way to turn my attention! I'm very thankful they're all good things though, no disasters or fires I need to put out at least.

[jebsmith]

Thank god there are no fires!

[cobaltssoverbooster]

I just changed my ring and pinion in my F35 from 3.82 to 4.45 Is this where I change it. Or do I have to make some other change.

changing this alone pretty much dials in the cluster and abs this doesnt change load calulations for the engine.
engine load should be based off of rpm/map kpa/maf hz/fact. wb02/timing/cam tables/dal's/and a few other adjustable tables. changing a gearing should not alter the way it calulates load but the actual physical gearing will sweep the rpms in 3rd faster so if your recording resolution goes down then youll have that to deal with.

[BlueBetaFish11]

Long time listener... first time caller.

I've tuned a few cars with HPT, so I'm by no means a professional or anything of that nature. Truthfully, my buddy's LNF was more or less the first car I truly tuned. He was kind enough to give me the opportunity to do so.

My tune on his car made 330whp/389wtq (411wtq highest). That was a GMPP1 + my tune on the last beta 2.23. I just picked up this new beta so I'm trying to learn everything over again. And truthfully I think I can get into the 340s on 93oct alone with many of the bigger power guys - I just know the devil is in the details now.

The one thing I have to offer from what I've done thus far is that I prefer not utilizing the "pressure limit" to control boost - or DALs, MALTs, etc... I have DALs at like 350 and MALTs at 100 after 3500. In my mind, I recognize that DALs are overshot, but that CFM != PSI when better flow is achieved - which is why my strategy is to make the wastegate do the work. I've utilized the WGDC table to successfully flatten boost to 266-268kpa - not inclusive of taper of course. I am currently working on figuring out how to hold some more boost up top though. I haven't done anything with the actuator rod or proportional max.

Anyhow, I just wanted to add another perspective on boost control I suppose. If Term or Broke or anyone would consider checking out my most recent tune I'd be super grateful. Maybe we can cooperate - having a new perspective is almost always helpful.

As someone recently mentioned, I'm really battling with these cam tables. I'm running a table that I've done nothing else to - it came from someone on here. Without sitting on a dyno and making changes I don't know if I can definitively say I'm doing better or worse with it. I also don't know what the edges are before contact. I mean... a little overlap is probably a good thing to be sure to draw in as much fresh "air" as possible and keeping the intake valves open a little longer should help fill the cylinder as well. Pretty basic stuff, but where are the limits before piston to valve occurs? Also, does anyone have any good solutions to making cam timing smooth in WOT? I don't like the little waves that seem to always occur.

Sorry for a continuous rambling on. Hopefully we can add some new stuff to this like John would like

[Leafy]

Hmm thats kind of a different way to look at boost control. I'm more of a fan of boost =! power but air flow = power so get the air flow I want based on the boost number I'm seeing and just try to not make the compressor cry.

[Iam Broke]

I tuned up to proportional max of 100%, but limited it with the load vs rpm table where I needed it in the midrange and then backed off boost as needed in 4th & 5th in the per gear tables. I'm at work and I forgets the exact table names since I've been in the LS1 world, but email the tune to the addy in my profile and I'll try to look it over tonight or tomorrow. I also try not to bounce off the boost limiter as it caused too much oscillation (ringing) of the boost.

[BlueBetaFish11]

Hmm thats kind of a different way to look at boost control. I'm more of a fan of boost =! power but air flow = power so get the air flow I want based on the boost number I'm seeing and just try to not make the compressor cry.

That's what I was saying as well. CFM is not dependant solely upon boost. They are factors of one another in FI, but you can flow the same CFM at lower boost pressures relatively speaking with better airflow "mods." So, I'm allowing DALs and MALTs to be 350 and 100 respectively will allow whatever amount of airflow across the MAF/MAP/whatever. Whereas utilizing the WGDC to control all of the boost levels should mean that you can change other things effecting flow without effecting boost pressure/drivability. Or at least that's my theory on it thus far. I'm interested to hear anyone that has some experience on the matter either way. I'm trying to keep boost ~24psi max and I'd like to try to force 20-21psi to 6500. I know at that level up top it's going to blow a lot of hot air, which will hurt CFMs a lot, but unfortunately I think that's the only way to try to keep top end up on these. Spiking 27psi and trying to hold 20+ up top hurts it even more I suspect. I conceptually think of it as a closed system - if all heat available is 100%, I want to waste less in the middle RPM range and save it for up top. On E85 or a blend it's probably less important because only so much boost can be forced out of them anyhow and it almost only can be forced via ign timing then.

[BlueBetaFish11]

I tuned up to proportional max of 100%, but limited it with the load vs rpm table where I needed it in the midrange and then backed off boost as needed in 4th & 5th in the per gear tables. I'm at work and I forgets the exact table names since I've been in the LS1 world, but email the tune to the addy in my profile and I'll try to look it over tonight or tomorrow. I also try not to bounce off the boost limiter as it caused too much oscillation (ringing) of the boost.

Oh, I definitely use that for sure. I only have like 68% available in 2nd gear. 50s/low 60s in first. Then 90-95% in 4th and 5th until >5000 rpms or so.

I'll probably have to take a stab at increasing proportional max to 100%. I'll have to send it over to you then. My pressure limit is 300kpa. I don't have any restrictions on boost or airflow aside from the WGDC really. I'm definitely interested in feedback regarding cam timing (still very unclear to me as some people's suggestions seem highly counterintuitive) and even ign timing I suppose. Anything really haha.

[BlueBetaFish11]

The x-axis is load on proportional max? That's what the values look like to me at least?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

Oh, I definitely use that for sure. I only have like 68% available in 2nd gear. 50s/low 60s in first. Then 90-95% in 4th and 5th until >5000 rpms or so.

I'll probably have to take a stab at increasing proportional max to 100%. I'll have to send it over to you then. My pressure limit is 300kpa. I don't have any restrictions on boost or airflow aside from the WGDC really. I'm definitely interested in feedback regarding cam timing (still very unclear to me as some people's suggestions seem highly counterintuitive) and even ign timing I suppose. Anything really haha.

The LNf's actually tend to like exhaust cam changes over the intake. And but has posted some killer cams on here I have them with exception to wot (long story). And went from 20-25 mpg so definitely worth trying. If the ones you got are different