2014 Coyote Torque and Inverse Tables effect on Throttle angle (SURGE)

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Originally Posted by Jn2

Yeah, seems mine is missing it too and it's a 13'

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yes mine is missing driver demand and indicated torque, i did send request in thru tech tho.

Are these the PIDs you are missing?


Attachment 66089

No sir i have those, i Do not have the indicated torque and driver demand torque pids

There's an actual Driver Demand Torque PID. Not sure if it even reports differently than some of the PIDs available because I've never been able to log it.

Here is a simple example of a histogram that will give you the info you need to correct your torque tables. Start by selecting ETC throttle angle error to be plotted on your graph that uses air load on the x axis and rpm on the y axis. Use the same numbers from your x and y of your torque tables for the headers. I am confident everyone has those channels available. If not just ask Eric to add them. You ask why to log ETC throttle angle error? You wont be changing any predicted or effective angle tables anyway. Use the published data from the throttle body manufacturer and do not change it. Since throttle angle error is a direct indicator of how far off your torque tables are it just makes sense to use it. Drive the car at varying speeds and loads to populate your histogram. The higher gear you select will populate the lower torque cells. Its best to do this on a load dyno if you live in the flatlands but you can get good results on the street. Be safe. After driving the car for a while you will see positive and negative numbers have populated your histogram. Make sure when you review your data you are displaying the averages of each cell. Any cells greater than .9 or less than -.9 are where you need to changing the torque numbers in your torque tables. Remember you need to be logging mapped points to determine what torque table you are using also. I just turned all mine off except for OP for the test. Up to you how you want to use this tool. Lets say you find that at 2000 rpm and .8 load the ETC error is -6.07 and the surrounding cells are all various negative numbers ranging from -5.34 to -2.40. You will then go to that particular cell in the torque table for that mapped point and take maybe 5% from those cells. Load the new tune and drive again. You will see a change in the ETC error. It might be more error or less depending on if you are changing the torque numbers in the right direction. I have found that lowering the torque table numbers will begin to give you positive results. Strive for ETC angle errors to hover around zero. Easy as that. If your car is surging badly the data you collect will be useless. You will need to first lower the torque numbers in the area where the surge starts to get a good baseline to start gathering useful data. For example: If the a surge starts at 2500 rpm at .7 load in high gear as you depress the pedal you will need to lower the torque numbers in the 2500 rpm column from .7 load down in that torque table. Don't forge to blend the surrounding cells. Subtract maybe 25 ft/lbs and try again. Keep lowering until the surge begins to lessen and finally goes away. The software HP Tuners offers is a very versatile tool. My method is by fay not the only way to correct the surging nor are the pids I use the only ones you may use to get similar results.

One thing I forgot from the last post... ***IMPORTANT***Don't forget to make the applicable changes to your inverted torque tables. Changing just your torque tables will not give you positive results.

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Originally Posted by ridenrunwv

Doing one mapped point at a time is probably the best way but you can also use filters in the scanner to do most of this from one log. I do things like MP3 > 75 and just change the MP3 to different mapped points.

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The filters are a wonderful thing. Once you learn how to use them it is easy to go overboard....
We wont need much more before these things will tune themselves.

Attaching a screen cap of a histogram I use.

Additionally for some light reading: http://www.masterenginetuner.com/201...e-maps-p1.html

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Originally Posted by rcmikey

Here is a simple example of a histogram that will give you the info you need to correct your torque tables. Start by selecting ETC throttle angle error to be plotted on your graph that uses air load on the x axis and rpm on the y axis. Use the same numbers from your x and y of your torque tables for the headers. I am confident everyone has those channels available. If not just ask Eric to add them. You ask why to log ETC throttle angle error? You wont be changing any predicted or effective angle tables anyway. Use the published data from the throttle body manufacturer and do not change it. Since throttle angle error is a direct indicator of how far off your torque tables are it just makes sense to use it. Drive the car at varying speeds and loads to populate your histogram. The higher gear you select will populate the lower torque cells. Its best to do this on a load dyno if you live in the flatlands but you can get good results on the street. Be safe. After driving the car for a while you will see positive and negative numbers have populated your histogram. Make sure when you review your data you are displaying the averages of each cell. Any cells greater than .9 or less than -.9 are where you need to changing the torque numbers in your torque tables. Remember you need to be logging mapped points to determine what torque table you are using also. I just turned all mine off except for OP for the test. Up to you how you want to use this tool. Lets say you find that at 2000 rpm and .8 load the ETC error is -6.07 and the surrounding cells are all various negative numbers ranging from -5.34 to -2.40. You will then go to that particular cell in the torque table for that mapped point and take maybe 5% from those cells. Load the new tune and drive again. You will see a change in the ETC error. It might be more error or less depending on if you are changing the torque numbers in the right direction. I have found that lowering the torque table numbers will begin to give you positive results. Strive for ETC angle errors to hover around zero. Easy as that. If your car is surging badly the data you collect will be useless. You will need to first lower the torque numbers in the area where the surge starts to get a good baseline to start gathering useful data. For example: If the a surge starts at 2500 rpm at .7 load in high gear as you depress the pedal you will need to lower the torque numbers in the 2500 rpm column from .7 load down in that torque table. Don't forge to blend the surrounding cells. Subtract maybe 25 ft/lbs and try again. Keep lowering until the surge begins to lessen and finally goes away. The software HP Tuners offers is a very versatile tool. My method is by fay not the only way to correct the surging nor are the pids I use the only ones you may use to get similar results.

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Sorry for the noob question,
How do you disable the other MP's? and just us OP?

Engine>Airflow>Variable Camshaft>Mapped Points Configuration. 1 is active, 0 is disabled.

If OP is not normally active do you activate it and utilize it going forward. Most threads and literature I read including the cookbook talks about tuning the OP.

On 2015+ the OP aren't always active. You can do a log of a WOT pull and see which MP is being used and disable all but that one.
The point of doing it this way is to remove the variables(MP blending), in order to simplify the process.
Look at the link WBT posted above. It's a very informative read.

Awesome.
I had understood this that the point was to be able to focus on one point.
This truck uses Mapped Point 0 under WOT so I can disable 1, 2 & 3 concentrating on 0 then populate 1, 2 & 3 from there with the use of a spread sheet and "original variances".
So don't worry about utilizing OP as it wasn't enabled originally.
Will I be able to calibrate "Optimum Power" variables from Mapped Point 0 in this case, ie. Accel enrichment, enrichment for boost, etc

What in the case you have no throttle errors?
So you go part throttle, engine requests 450, but gets 800? No surge there, but may get etc error if wheel torque limit not set very high

I gather your start point was a supercharged file? I don't think that method will work if starting from a stock file as a lot of your TQ tables were already modified for higher TQ. I didn't touch predict pedal and pedal area for month using a similar method and could not get perfect driveability nor zero IPC faults. Unlike GM I feel throttle area is not a measurement of actual area more a therotical size that the blade would have to be to allow a given volume of air hence why they are predicted throttle and effective area. I populated my TQ tables based on each mapped point from the percentage increases over stock as measured on the dyno. This way I'm confident the transmission is getting the correct TQ values. I corrected the inverse TQ tables to match. I then raised and scaled the predicted throttle area and effective area tables based on the IPC error. I noticed a couple of things. Much better blade control, particularly at higher loads, manipulation of the driver demand table now allows me to have any throttle feel I desire and the blade follows the pedal at higher loads far more effectively.

I don't see a channel to log driver demand torque for an S550. Is this something that needs to be added?

Just the thread I was needing. Working on a 3.6L kenne bell on a boss 302 w their 168mm throttle body and have been fighting this exact issue. Just requested the dd pid be added to the strategy that I'm working with. Great write up!

Can anyone help on this?

I have requested this for my 2013 OSID (FPDW3FA) but have not gotten any indication from support if this is available. However, on the Beta and stable scanner I now have Driver Demand Source Request but no Driver Demand Torque. That would be very useful. However you might want to look at murfies post and the following posts and replies. R8Bill (one post above mine) put together a nice visual step-by-step that illustrates murfie's explanation on properly setting the torque values and the reduction of subsequent IPC errors. However, there is a small error that murfie pointed out in R8Bill's screenshots that is easily fixed. BTW - Thanks R8Bill for doing that.

https://www.hptuners.com/forum/showt...se-calculation

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Originally Posted by rcmikey

The only tables I adjusted at this point were the torque and inverse torque tables for OP. I did the math to ensure the inverse table is populated correctly and went for a drive. I began logging driver demand torque against indicated torque and made a histogram to reflect throttle position vs rpm that plotted driver demand and another histogram that used the same x and y axis but plotted indicated torque. I used user defined math to simply show the error between the two plotted results. I noticed as soon as the error between the two reached 50 ft/lbs the throttle would began to close than open again and close again not being able to keep up with the power the car was making as boost came in. Using the data from the histogram I could easily identify what area of the torque table needed to be raised or lowered. Once the torque table was corrected I went back and did the math again to make sure the inverse table was correct, loaded the tune and logged again. Within two attempts all my torque errors were no greater that 25 ft/lbs. Surge was completely gone.

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When you did your user defined math did you enter Driver Demand - Engine Indicated Torque or Engine Indicated Torque - Driver Demand? Which table did you then correct Driver Demand or Engine Indicated?