Need Help setting up 42 lb injectors

[turboffr]

Ok, so I've ruled out everything else on the car. The injectors are causing it to run pig rich...9:1 AFR at idle. Car is a2005 Mustang GT with a recently installed On3 turbo system. Can someone please look over the injector settings in the tune and let me know if something looks wrong, or if there are any other parameters that need to be changed with the 42's? I'm using the latest BETA.

Troubleshooting done tonight to rule out everything else:
1.) Removed the 42's and Pro-m slot sensor and replaced with the stock stuff and stock tune ---turbo not hooked up -- car ran great --
2.) Put in the Pro-M slot sensor in the stock intake and input the pro-m calibration to the tune - turbo still not hooked up. Trims fell right in line after some light changes to the MAF airflow table. -- car ran great
3.) Put Pro-m sensor in turbo pipe with 3" pro-m calibration an ran turbo into throttle body- some minor changes to the MAF airflow table and STFT's were in 0-4% while crusing and idle -- car ran great
3.) Added 42 lb injectors and the Ford injector specs to the tune. Car runs like crap. AFR is 9:1 and O2's are pegged rich.

I'm confident that the MAF table is correct as it worked great with the stock injectors. Only changes after that was the 42's. What I found interesting is that when I lowered the Injector offset vs. voltage by a factor of 1,000 the car leaned out to within 20% of stoich. see post # 38 in this thread http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...ight=injectors

This is supposed to be fixed in HP Tuners already, so I may just be grasping at straws. I would really like to know what the issue is so I can get this car squared away. Not sure if there are any other problems with the injector tables and was hoping someone has the values for 42's that are known to work in HP Tuners. Thanks

[RWTD]

I discussed the issue concerning the "Injector Offset vs. Voltage" function listing 3 YEARS AGO back in 2008, as well as the "FNPW_BKCOMP" parameter missing (so don't hold your breath on HPT adding it on anytime soon!).

With that being said, SCT, DiabloSport, & HPT never had the unit listings wrong. This is how they were always displayed in the PowerPC vehicles (as you'll see by my quoted post from 2008 below). Labeling may be a different story, however, but that's more of how one perceives the decimal description in their head. ie 0.0007xx and 0.003xxx is viewed as a ms by some, and not as a sec (ie 1.x). I even discussed this on SCT's dealer's forums back in 2007 or 2008.

http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showpo...21&postcount=7

Furthermore, on the "Injector Offset vs. Voltage" function in HPT, you're gonna fock yourself if you copy Ford Racing's "FNPW_OFFSET" values direct from the pdf file. Why? Ford Racing shows the values for the parameter in EEC-V specs. The EEC-V pcms has these parameters listed in seconds, and the the newer Oak pcms have them in milliseconds. Therefore, you just take the values for the EEC-V pcm and divide them by 1000. Here's Ford Racing's values in the proper format for HPT:

	PW Offset
0.00	0.0025900
0.00	0.0025900
0.00	0.0025900
6.00	0.0025900
8.00	0.0014410
10.00	0.0009210
11.00	0.0007580
12.00	0.0006360
13.00	0.0005180
14.00	0.0004090
15.00	0.0003120
15.90	0.0003120

Notice the voltage difference on the left hand column? Open up the Injector Offset parameter and then click on "Volts (V)" on the left, and then replace the values with this:

	V
0	0.000
1	0.000
2	0.000
3	6.000
4	8.000
5	10.000
6	11.000
7	12.000
8	13.000
9	14.000
10	15.000
11	15.900

Don't forget to copy in the other values Ford Racing lists:

FUEL_BKPT (lb) - "Breakpoint" in HPT
FNPW_BKCOMP - HPT hasn't given us this parameter yet, unfortunately (SCT has, tho ).

FNPW_LSCOMP - "Flow Rate Low Mult vs. Pressure" in HPT
FNPW_HSCOMP - "Flow Rate High Mult vs. Pressure" in HPT
FNPW_OFFCOMP - "Offset vs. Pressure" in HPT


These last four are important for when fuel pressure changes on the EFRS (Electronic Returnless Fuel System) vehicles.

[turboffr]

Bill - can you double check to see if this was indeed fixed in BETA? When I divide the ford values by 1,000 for the "Injector offset vs. voltage" the car runs better. The Ford .pdf lists voltage offset in (ms) and shows 4.XX and the HP Tuners table says (ms) so I entered 4.XX right from the .pdf, but seems as if I still needed to divide the Ford specs by 1,000 and enter .004XX.

James - in theory, if I have the MAF table dialed in and make an injector change, the fuel trims should be very close to where they were before making the injector change, (assuming the injector settings are properly setup in the tune)? Taking into account the above issue (asuming it's not fixed), what else should I need to fine tune to get the fueling where it needs to be? I don't think changing the MAF table would be correct is it's been proven to be accurate, right?

[RWTD]

Bill - can you double check to see if this was indeed fixed in BETA? When I divide the ford values by 1,000 for the "Injector offset vs. voltage" the car runs better. The Ford .pdf lists voltage offset in (ms) and shows 4.XX and the HP Tuners table says (ms) so I entered 4.XX right from the .pdf, but seems as if I still needed to divide the Ford specs by 1,000 and enter .004XX.

I'm quite sure there isn't anything wrong (provided you're not dividing by 1000 anymore based on Ford Racing data). Look at the factory values, they are also listed in seconds in HPT now. I wish they would have kept the prior method, as this is how Ford displays them in the PowerPC. It's confusing with all the softwares displaying different.

James - in theory, if I have the MAF table dialed in and make an injector change, the fuel trims should be very close to where they were before making the injector change, (assuming the injector settings are properly setup in the tune)? Taking into account the above issue (asuming it's not fixed), what else should I need to fine tune to get the fueling where it needs to be? I don't think changing the MAF table would be correct is it's been proven to be accurate, right?

Correct, for the most part. It's not always perfect, and you may need to modify the MAF transfer some.

However, I tend to believe most of your issue is actually the PW Minimum scalar, and not being able to go over 1.0 sec. That will completely jack the tuning altogether. Just for shits/giggles, I'm going to give you a different set of 42# injector data. It's still for the exact same "green top" Ford injector, but this data comes directly from Ford, not Ford Racing. This is what Ford used in the Lightnings, FYI. Keep in mind, Lightnings had a mechanical returnless fuel system, and not a variable rate ERFS (electronic returnless fuel system), so Ford didn't give the injector data for the flow rate multipliers. However, the data still applies for 39.xx psi, and this will serve as a test for idle to see if your fuel comes inline.

Flow Rate Low: 48.9612579345702
Flow Rate High: 40.68031311035172
Breakpoint: 0.0000194

PW Minimum: 0.400543212890625

Offset vs. Voltage:

0	4.647460938
0	4.647460938
0	4.647460938
6	4.647460938
8	2.118164063
10	1.396484375
11	1.197265625
12	1.03125
13	0.903320313
14	0.786132813
15	0.71484375
15.99975586	0.71484375

Also, one another thing, didn't you say this car has the GT500 fuel pump assembly and dual FPDM setup (basically the Ford Racing setup)? If so, your PID values for that arrangement is wrong, and that can also cause fuel delivery issues. Change your PID values to such:

Derivative: 0.0000
Integral: 0.0549999997019768
Proportional: 0.0599999986588955

Also, update your FPVT (fuel pump voltage table, aka "Voltage vs. Flow vs. Pressure") to the following:

5.12142	5.15227	5.29316	5.52084	5.95558	6.85844	7.81190	8.82504	10.28930
6.10597	6.13709	6.27926	6.50924	6.94913	7.86634	8.84151	9.63743	11.17536
6.54669	6.57798	6.72093	6.95228	7.39525	8.32108	9.30927	10.37487	11.95700
7.57505	7.60671	7.75147	7.98603	8.43622	9.38214	10.40073	11.51222	13.19748
7.94233	7.97412	8.11952	8.35523	8.80799	9.76109	10.79053	11.91842	13.64051

Flow Axis:

0.045	0.000
0.100	1.000
0.350	2.000
0.750	3.000
1.500	4.000
3.000	5.000
4.500	6.000
6.000	7.000
8.000	8.000

Pressure Axis:

25.000	0.000
35.000	1.000
41.000	2.000
55.000	3.000
60.000	4.000
60.000	4.000
60.000	4.000

You still won't have the ability to change the Max Inferred MAP Value to at least 64, since HPT still hasn't added that parameter in (I can't stress how important this is, so as to allow the pcm to recognize boost).

[turboffr]

Thanks James!! I will try these and report back.

I'm still slightly confused on what values I should input into HP Tuners for the injector offset vs. voltage.....4.XX or divide by 1,000 and input .004XX? Ford vales are ms, but HP tuners is in seconds (even though they're listed in ms?)

fyi - Bill was also able to fix the minimum pulse width scalar in my beta version. Limit is now 2.0 and I had 1.13 in the scalar last night.

You still won't have the ability to change the Max Inferred MAP Value to at least 64, since HPT still hasn't added that parameter in (I can't stress how important this is, so as to allow the pcm to recognize boost).

Point noted. How are others getting away with boost using HP Tuners?

[RWTD]

Point noted. How are others getting away with boost using HP Tuners?

They aren't, and definitely not properly nor safely. I'll be honest, and a bit crude to say (but brutally truthful), most folks who use HPT to tune Fords with aren't tuners, but hacks. They have zero clue at how the DBW (drive by wire) and ERFS (electronic returnless fuel system) functions, nor how to tune them, nor how to get around specific factory inherent limitations with specific settings. I haven't checked the latest bet scanner, but previous iterations didn't have the ability to scan DMRs, just PIDs, and the DBW logging is all DMR based.

I love HPT (I'm an HPT GM "fanman"), don't get me wrong, but their Ford support is weak. It has the potential to be amazing, too! 3 years and they still haven't added in the missing injector parameter that is absolutely needed. 3 years of me suggesting I send them a factory tune with just that parameter changed, as well as the Max Inferred MAP parameter changed, and they just don't seem that interested. To Bill's credit, he's done his best, but the engineers, and HPT's other desired interests, are the holdup.

[turboffr]

Ok. I will try setting these up using the values listed exactly as you have them and will report back.

Has anyone recently setup injectors using the latest beta and the Ford specs right from the info sheet. Curious how it worked out.

Very inetersting on the boost. I'm using HP tuners because I had it for GM and really liked it. Wasn't aware of those shortcomings. Expected it to be like it was for GM.

[RWTD]

It just hit me about the FPVT: HPT raised the table range but they still have not included the the Max Allowed Fuel Flow Rate scalar. Without that changing that value to higher than the factory value (4 on the 3V, & 8 on the GT500), then no matter what you change the FPVT axis range to, the PCM will never exceed the stock max rate (again, 4 on 3V & 8 on the GT500). I need to yet again point out this limitation to HPT. This is another huge issue for boosted vehicles, as they easily hit fuel flow rates of 5-8+, depending on power output.

[Meister@Torq]

I am getting fed up with SCT too and really wish HPT would step up their game

[turboffr]

UPDATE: The "42" lb injectors I was working with were Chinese knock-offs of the Ford green tops. I put a new set of Ford injectors in the car and all my problems were solved. There is a "bosch" part number on one side of the injector and a "chinese" part number on the other side. They looked just like Bosch until you take a close look. DO NOT buy injectors from ON3 performance. The turbo kit fit nice, but the injectors are junk!!

[Bill@HPTuners]

Thanks for the heads up, junk parts make our job very difficult at times

[Meister@Torq]

UPDATE: The "42" lb injectors I was working with were Chinese knock-offs of the Ford green tops. I put a new set of Ford injectors in the car and all my problems were solved. There is a "bosch" part number on one side of the injector and a "chinese" part number on the other side. They looked just like Bosch until you take a close look. DO NOT buy injectors from ON3 performance. The turbo kit fit nice, but the injectors are junk!!

Does this surprise you considering the rest of their kit is SHIT quality.

[Bill@HPTuners]

I'm quite sure there isn't anything wrong (provided you're not dividing by 1000 anymore based on Ford Racing data). Look at the factory values, they are also listed in seconds in HPT now. I wish they would have kept the prior method, as this is how Ford displays them in the PowerPC. It's confusing with all the softwares displaying different.



Correct, for the most part. It's not always perfect, and you may need to modify the MAF transfer some.

However, I tend to believe most of your issue is actually the PW Minimum scalar, and not being able to go over 1.0 sec. That will completely jack the tuning altogether. Just for shits/giggles, I'm going to give you a different set of 42# injector data. It's still for the exact same "green top" Ford injector, but this data comes directly from Ford, not Ford Racing. This is what Ford used in the Lightnings, FYI. Keep in mind, Lightnings had a mechanical returnless fuel system, and not a variable rate ERFS (electronic returnless fuel system), so Ford didn't give the injector data for the flow rate multipliers. However, the data still applies for 39.xx psi, and this will serve as a test for idle to see if your fuel comes inline.

Flow Rate Low: 48.9612579345702
Flow Rate High: 40.68031311035172
Breakpoint: 0.0000194

PW Minimum: 0.400543212890625

Offset vs. Voltage:

0    4.647460938
0    4.647460938
0    4.647460938
6    4.647460938
8    2.118164063
10    1.396484375
11    1.197265625
12    1.03125
13    0.903320313
14    0.786132813
15    0.71484375
15.99975586    0.71484375

Also, one another thing, didn't you say this car has the GT500 fuel pump assembly and dual FPDM setup (basically the Ford Racing setup)? If so, your PID values for that arrangement is wrong, and that can also cause fuel delivery issues. Change your PID values to such:

Derivative: 0.0000
Integral: 0.0549999997019768
Proportional: 0.0599999986588955

Also, update your FPVT (fuel pump voltage table, aka "Voltage vs. Flow vs. Pressure") to the following:

5.12142    5.15227    5.29316    5.52084    5.95558    6.85844    7.81190    8.82504    10.28930
6.10597    6.13709    6.27926    6.50924    6.94913    7.86634    8.84151    9.63743    11.17536
6.54669    6.57798    6.72093    6.95228    7.39525    8.32108    9.30927    10.37487    11.95700
7.57505    7.60671    7.75147    7.98603    8.43622    9.38214    10.40073    11.51222    13.19748
7.94233    7.97412    8.11952    8.35523    8.80799    9.76109    10.79053    11.91842    13.64051

Flow Axis:

0.045    0.000
0.100    1.000
0.350    2.000
0.750    3.000
1.500    4.000
3.000    5.000
4.500    6.000
6.000    7.000
8.000    8.000

Pressure Axis:

25.000    0.000
35.000    1.000
41.000    2.000
55.000    3.000
60.000    4.000
60.000    4.000
60.000    4.000

You still won't have the ability to change the Max Inferred MAP Value to at least 64, since HPT still hasn't added that parameter in (I can't stress how important this is, so as to allow the pcm to recognize boost).

Ok we’ve added the following params to FBIS2 & RXAQ3 to the newest beta and one of our other engineers will go through the remainder of defs within the next few weeks to round them all out.

Max allow value for inferred map-“Calculated MAP Max” under engine-airflow-general-speed density
Max Load Seen By Engine-“Max Load”-under engine-airflow-general-speed density
Max allowed value of FP flow-“Fuel pump flow max” under fuel system-fuel pump
Fuel injector breakpoint multiplier for deltaP-“injector breakpoint mult vs pressure” under engine-fuel-injectors

This should round out all of the necessary things to get things working as they should