E85 people step in.

[TDCRacing]

Going to do the switch to E85 after I get the new turbo setup running on regular gas in about a week. Along with what's in m4 sig i'll be running a 9.4:1 Cr block out of an L36 (02 GT)


I am also new to wideband tuning. Never used one before. Only the narrowband.I did just purchase a AFX wideband though.



I need all the info you people can give me that will help me. As in what to change ect ect. If you could list everything that would be awesome.

And for people firmiliar with an AFC I will also be using one of those to scale back the MAF so it won't max it out with the turbo setup.



Thanks a lot for any help.

[driftnpow]

how does the afr get viewed on your OS? is it traditional afr ratio or in lambda?
said in a nutshell for the OS associated with alloytecs being in lambda its not tooo hard, just tweek ya injector muliplier-cam n airload to get ya stoich afr at low loads with miniumal-no knock as possible, and set ya PE table and confirm via wideband that its making that.
as for wideband not too hard, longas you know the afrs you need to target say for cruise, lean cruise (if available) and power enrichment are achieved, its just another angle to look via scan to varify your tune, dont get stressed over it

[e85grandprix]

All you need to do is scale your IFR tables 30% down to make up for 30% extra fuel you need, provided your regular gasoline tune is good to go. If your gas tune sucks so will the E85 tune. I keep my fuel trims in check all year round so at any time i can switch between the fuels with no problems.

[RWTD]

Originally Posted by e85grandprix

All you need to do is scale your IFR tables 30% down to make up for 30% extra fuel you need, provided your regular gasoline tune is good to go. If your gas tune sucks so will the E85 tune. I keep my fuel trims in check all year round so at any time i can switch between the fuels with no problems.

This is NOT what you do! NEVER scale the IFR tables for variation in stoich between different fuels. Instead, you make a SIMPLE change to the Stoich AFR parameter, and input the new stoich value of the fuel you're using, and then the pcm properly compensates without any other effort.

Best thing to do is tune the car perfect on pure 100% gas. Once trims are in spec, then put in E-85 and adjust the Stoich AFR parameter. Here's the trick to be careful of - Not all E-85 is true 85% ethanol, as it can be "up to 85%", and has a minimum usually around 7x.x% range. So what do you do? Watch your trims, and take an average difference of them from what stoich would be of pure E-85, and then apply that difference to that true known E-85 stoich value. Oh, and then keep filling up at the same station, LOL! So for pure numbers sake, pure 100% gas is approx. 14.6x AFR, and true E-85 would be approx. 9.8x AFR. That's approx. a 33% difference.

Furthermore, NEVER scale the IFR tables period. ALWAYS leave the IFR tables exactly set to the injectors. The only reason you'd scale the IFR values is IF you need to gain additional room for injectors larger than the typical 63.5# limit on many of the Gen-IV vehicle calibrations, and/or need additional MAF airflow headroom, and headroom for various other airflow based tables. If you scale IFR values then you must scale every other parameter that is airflow based.

[e85grandprix]

Prepare to get schooled your post is WRONG and stupid but at least you tried to troll one of my threads.

E85 READS THE EXACT SAME AS FUEL ON THE NARROW BAND!

Furthermore don't read the post above because it's wrong. Changing the stoich is stupid, E85 reads the exact same as fuel when it comes out of the combustion chamber. Just because it goes in at 9.8:1 doesn't mean you COMMAND that. All you have to do is tune it perfectly on normal gasoline first, then scale the injectors 30% to make up for the added amount of fuel and you're done.

RWTD - Thanks for playing, LMK how many people come to you with problems cause they're commanding a 9.8:1 fuel ratio LOL which in turn would actually cause them to run about 5:1 while on E85. Go read some more then come back and edit your post. kthx

[passingpower]

Consider this, The engineers that design and calibrate these engines know more about them than anyone on these aftermarket tuning forums. Can anyone disagree and keep a straight face?

This thread is about doing what a flex fuel does.
Download two or three FF cals from the repository and find out how the experts handle the change. The difference for you will be no ethanol sensing, you'll have to flash the cal when you switch.

Just a reminder, keep your injectors from going static.

Air fuel ratio.
The definition of ratio means two seperate quantities. Change one, and the ratio goes too.
Modding=change. You want to rebalance the ratio? You've got two choices; (re)calibrate the quantity you changed or, leave it skewed and compensate the other half of the equation and have things screwed up times two.
Food for thought.

[c.w.barber]

I changed my Stoich value and the car fired up and ran fine.

[LowePerf]

Originally Posted by e85grandprix

Prepare to get schooled your post is WRONG and stupid but at least you tried to troll one of my threads.

E85 READS THE EXACT SAME AS FUEL ON THE NARROW BAND!

Furthermore don't read the post above because it's wrong. Changing the stoich is stupid, E85 reads the exact same as fuel when it comes out of the combustion chamber. Just because it goes in at 9.8:1 doesn't mean you COMMAND that. All you have to do is tune it perfectly on normal gasoline first, then scale the injectors 30% to make up for the added amount of fuel and you're done.

RWTD - Thanks for playing, LMK how many people come to you with problems cause they're commanding a 9.8:1 fuel ratio LOL which in turn would actually cause them to run about 5:1 while on E85. Go read some more then come back and edit your post. kthx

WOW!
FWIW James is probably in the top ten tuners in this country.

Originally Posted by e85grandprix

Go read some more then come back and edit your post. kthx

Follow your own advise but remember that 95% of what you find on the internet is wrong! It's what people do to get by, not proper calibration techniques.

[RWTD]

Originally Posted by e85grandprix

Prepare to get schooled your post is WRONG and stupid but at least you tried to troll one of my threads.

E85 READS THE EXACT SAME AS FUEL ON THE NARROW BAND!

Furthermore don't read the post above because it's wrong. Changing the stoich is stupid, E85 reads the exact same as fuel when it comes out of the combustion chamber. Just because it goes in at 9.8:1 doesn't mean you COMMAND that. All you have to do is tune it perfectly on normal gasoline first, then scale the injectors 30% to make up for the added amount of fuel and you're done.

RWTD - Thanks for playing, LMK how many people come to you with problems cause they're commanding a 9.8:1 fuel ratio LOL which in turn would actually cause them to run about 5:1 while on E85. Go read some more then come back and edit your post. kthx

Don't worry, I'm not going to get pissed off at you. I was doing EVERYONE a favor in attempting to allow those who aren't in the know, such as yourself (nothing wrong with that - we all start from somewhere), to understand the proper method for correcting for fuels with different stoich points. Hopefully you'll pay attention and one day desire to learn proper tuning.

Oh, it's okay for you to not even admit your wrong, since you're really not aware that you are. But, as you said in another post on here:

Originally Posted by e85grandprix

I'm I figured it out... I'm an idiot, and usually the first to admit it. Lucky for me, nobody knows what i look like...

Care to admit it now?

Look, it's all good, and I'm being jestful. No need for you to get offended. I'm just here to help all with tuning, as well as help myself.


Going on, I'm going to repeat what I previously said, as it is the correct:

Originally Posted by RWTD

This is NOT what you do! NEVER scale the IFR tables for variation in stoich between different fuels. Instead, you make a SIMPLE change to the Stoich AFR parameter, and input the new stoich value of the fuel you're using, and then the pcm properly compensates without any other effort.

Best thing to do is tune the car perfect on pure 100% gas. Once trims are in spec, then put in E-85 and adjust the Stoich AFR parameter. Here's the trick to be careful of - Not all E-85 is true 85% ethanol, as it can be "up to 85%", and has a minimum usually around 7x.x% range. So what do you do? Watch your trims, and take an average difference of them from what stoich would be of pure E-85, and then apply that difference to that true known E-85 stoich value. Oh, and then keep filling up at the same station, LOL! So for pure numbers sake, pure 100% gas is approx. 14.6x AFR, and true E-85 would be approx. 9.8x AFR. That's approx. a 33% difference.

Furthermore, NEVER scale the IFR tables period. ALWAYS leave the IFR tables exactly set to the injectors. The only reason you'd scale the IFR values is IF you need to gain additional room for injectors larger than the typical 63.5# limit on many of the Gen-IV vehicle calibrations, and/or need additional MAF airflow headroom, and headroom for various other airflow based tables. If you scale IFR values then you must scale every other parameter that is airflow based.

[RWTD]

Originally Posted by LowePerf

WOW!
FWIW James is probably in the top ten tuners in this country.

Follow your own advise but remember that 95% of what you find on the internet is wrong! It's what people do to get by, not proper calibration techniques.

Thanks John! I appreciate your kindness, buddy. All the same goes to you, as well, and all the best!

Originally Posted by c.w.barber

I changed my Stoich value and the car fired up and ran fine.

[V6GrandPrixGT98]

I was unable to figure out the cold start air fuel tables when using the method of editing the Stoich value. Car wanted to run super lean for the first 20 seconds or so at startup.

[e85grandprix]

Anyone changing their stoich value's is doing it wrong, there's a much easier CORRECT way of doing it but the top 10 tuner knows all so listen to him and ignore pretty much every person that ran E85 in their gp's without changing the stoich value.

And 95% of the stuff we read on the internet is false?! LOL you're an idiot. 95% of this thread is false, except of course what i said cause that's 100% true story.

/thread

[LowePerf]

Originally Posted by e85grandprix

Anyone changing their stoich value's is doing it wrong, there's a much easier CORRECT way of doing it but the top 10 tuner knows all so listen to him and ignore pretty much every person that ran E85 in their gp's without changing the stoich value.

And 95% of the stuff we read on the internet is false?! LOL you're an idiot. 95% of this thread is false, except of course what i said cause that's 100% true story.

/thread

Idiot? maybe so but I can admit when I'm wrong.
If 5000 people do something wrong it does not make it the correct way of doing it. Even if someone knows nothing about tuning(you), common sense should still tell them that

1. If you did not change the fuel injectors then why would you tell the computer you did?
2. If you changed the stoich of the fuel then why wouldn't you tell the computer you did?

Based off this post and your others, I'd say your one of those wanna be tuners. The problem is you don't even know how the PCM calculates a pulsewidth(from this post) and this is step 1 of things to learn to become a tuner.
Then we have this post,

Originally Posted by e85grandprix

Which brings me to another question... Why isn't it getting up in those cells? This problem is also on my stock GTP which is the car in question now. The scans show (attatched) the car is getting plenty of air (10,000hz on the maf, high 150 kpa) but the stock boost gauge doesn't max out until the wayyyy upper rpm's. Maybe after 5500 it'll finally fill in the last cell. It starts with just 3/4 of them and slowly raises with rpm's. I thought maybe belt slip so i got a new belt, didn't help, found a vac leak, nothing... what the heck?! I compared this to my other car which was on a 3.0 pulley (supporting mods) and that car only got 172kpa which doesn't seem like a huge difference to me but easily fills in the .92 (g/cyl) in the histograms.

which shows you don't know the difference between airflow and manifold pressure(step 2).

I could go on and on but I won't because you still won't get it or believe anything anybody tells you.

Here's the real problem though. People like you come here and without double checking their own knowledge, call someone "wrong and stupid". If you were serious about your tuning you should have at least heard of James before and when he posted, maybe you should have thought "well he's a professional tuner, maybe I should check into this further" but no, wrong and stupid. You could not even fathom the time,effort, and money that it takes to learn this stuff the right way so you would not understand how disrespectful that is. Instead, you should be thankful that people like James and Greg (and others) take the time to help out here. They don't have to.


My last concern is this post,

Originally Posted by e85grandprix

Post up that tune!!!

Stealing others tunes will not make you a better tuner. If you learned proper techniques you could do it yourself. This is what professional tuners do. If we do run across something that gives us trouble we know that if we ask, people like James is one of the first to send us anything we need.

[RWTD]

Originally Posted by e85grandprix

Anyone changing their stoich value's is doing it wrong, there's a much easier CORRECT way of doing it but the top 10 tuner knows all so listen to him and ignore pretty much every person that ran E85 in their gp's without changing the stoich value.

And 95% of the stuff we read on the internet is false?! LOL you're an idiot. 95% of this thread is false, except of course what i said cause that's 100% true story.

/thread

Dude, STFU before I have to e-slap you. You're a COMPLETE TOOL, and you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Anyone listening to your hardheaded brain is bound to screw up their vehicle one day.

Just know that you're wrong - end of story.

[RWTD]

Originally Posted by V6GrandPrixGT98

I was unable to figure out the cold start air fuel tables when using the method of editing the Stoich value. Car wanted to run super lean for the first 20 seconds or so at startup.

Can you post your factory backup, as well as the current tune you're using Also, when the car goes CL (Closed Loop), have you logged your fuel trims to determine how far off your MAF transfer is? It's also possible that you have inputted the wrong stoich value for the fuel you're using, hence how I explained to overcome that above.

The Stoich AFR value, as the HPT tuning notes state, "...is the reference AFR used by all fuel calculations inside the VCM. Deviations from this value are represented by divisors where greater than one is richer and less than one is leaner. Changing this value will effect all fuel calculations."