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Thread: How is injector timing calculated?

  1. #121
    Senior Tuner IDRIVEAG8GT's Avatar
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    For some people that want to go more in depth on figuring out how camshafts are reall spec'ed, I pulled some info off Super Chevy and made some tweaks of my own. Here it is:

    If the cylinder heads represent the aerobic side of an engine, and the rotating assembly is its muscle, then the camshaft must be the brain. The cam is the component that signals when the valves open and close, timing the valve events to create power.

    Appropriately, the cam is also the most complex and often baffling component in an internal combustion engine. That lumpy-bumpy stick with all the lobes commands a whole vocabulary of terms that can be especially confusing. This brief primer on camshaft basics will decipher many of those terms and explain how a camshaft works. Once you have a general understanding of what all this cam talk is about, you can use that knowledge to pick the cam that’s best for your engine. We can narrow the discussion of how a cam works down to lift, duration, and overlap as the three most critical components of cam design. We’ll save the discussion of overlap for a separate story.

    Lift

    A camshaft transforms rotating motion into linear, or straight-line, motion. Whoever designed the first camshaft lobe probably had no idea how complex this egg-shaped device would become. All eccentrics are based on a circle. In camshaft terms, this is called the base circle. From there, you add an eccentric, or lobe, that creates lift. The height of the lobe above the circle’s radius is the lobe lift of the camshaft.

    Let’s say we have a lobe lift measuring 0.333 inch. Since the Chevy engines that we’re interested in are pushrod V-8s, we also must include a rocker arm. The rocker is actuated by the vertical motion of the lifter and pushrod and multiplies lobe lift by the rocker arm ratio. For the classic small-block, the standard ratio is 1.5:1. Multiplying the lobe lift times the rocker ratio will produce gross valve lift (0.333-inch lobe lift times 1.5:1 rocker ratio = 0.499-inch gross valve lift).

    Higher rocker ratios can significantly increase valve lift, but this requires stiffer components that can become rather expensive. However, if you have a cylinder head that can flow more air at greater valve lifts, there is power to be made. Creating more lobe lift is not as easy as just making the eccentric taller. Because of physical limitations between the lifter and the cam, more lobe lift requires more distance to create the opening and closing ramps. This is created by extending the length of the ramps.

    Duration

    Duration is the term given to the amount of crank movement (in crankshaft degrees) that the lobe creates lift by pushing the lifter off the base circle. We’ll go over each of these specs to make them easier to understand. If you look at the size of a camshaft gear relative to the crank gear, you’ll notice that the cam gear is twice the size of the crank gear. This means that the camshaft spins at half crankshaft speed. To make it easier to understand cam duration, most cam specs are given in crankshaft degrees.

    Duration is expressed as the number of degrees of crankshaft rotation used by the lobe to move the lifter. Since the exact point at which the lifter starts to move can be difficult to establish, cam companies use a checking height to establish this movement. The SAE standard is 0.006 inch of lifter rise off the base circle of the cam. Unfortunately, not all companies use this standard. Because different checking heights can make a large difference in the “advertised” duration of a camshaft, the industry established the common checking height of 0.050 inch for duration. This is the only way to accurately compare duration figures of camshafts >> from different manufacturers.

    For each lobe there is an opening and closing point. Duration is expressed as the number of degrees that the crankshaft rotates between these two points. For example, the intake lobe on a Crane PowerMax H-288 cam has an advertised duration of 288 degrees and a 0.050-inch duration of 226 degrees. The 0.050-inch duration will always be less than the advertised duration because it measures between opening and closing points on the lobe that are closer together—where the tappet reaches 0.050-inch rise. The advertised duration for Crane cams is measured at 0.004-inch tappet lift, which encompasses a greater rotation, so the number of degrees will always be higher.

    We should also discuss where these opening and closing points occur. Intake opening (IO) usually occurs before top dead center (BTDC), while intake closing (IC) happens after bottom dead center (ABDC). For the exhaust side, exhaust opening (EO) occurs before bottom dead center (BBDC) and exhaust closing (EC) after top dead center (ATDC). These data points are listed on the cam card that comes with each new camshaft. These points can also be verified with the cam in the engine when the camshaft is degreed. If you’re not sure of the size of the cam but you know the intake and exhaust opening and closing points, you can determine the duration by simply adding the opening and closing points to 180 degrees. For example, the Crane PowerMax 288 cam’s 0.050-inch tappet lift numbers are IO at 4 degrees BTDC and IC at 42 degrees ABDC. Add these to 180 degrees and you get 226 degrees (4 + 42 +180 = 226 degrees). This technique also applies to the exhaust lobe.

    Intake Centerline

    Now that you’re conversant with lift and duration, let’s add another detail called the lobe centerline. >> Imagine looking at a lobe split directly down the middle as viewed from the end of the cam. This line would create what’s called the intake centerline. The exhaust lobe also has a similar centerline. If you look at a typical cam card, the intake centerline is also expressed in crankshaft degrees ATDC. For example, a Comp Cams 268 Xtreme Energy cam has an intake centerline of 106 degrees ATDC. You can use this information to degree the cam and find the intake centerline for cylinder No. 1 to ensure the cam is installed in the proper relationship to the crankshaft.

    When degreeing the cam, it’s possible that the cam may not always check out in the right place. For example, let’s say you degree this cam in your engine and discover the intake centerline is actually installed at 112 degrees ATDC compared to the 106 degree specifications. This means the cam is retarded relative to the cam card spec. To position the cam at 106, the cam must be advanced 6 degrees. Conversely, if we found the cam at 103 degrees ATDC, this is advanced compared to the 106 centerline. Repositioning the intake centerline at 106 degrees ATDC would require retarding the cam 3 degrees.

    Single- and Dual-Pattern Cams

    We’re slowly assembling the building blocks that make up a camshaft. If you’ve ever looked at the card that comes with a new cam, then perhaps you’ve noticed that sometimes the intake and exhaust duration specs are similar and other times they are not. A single-pattern cam uses the same duration and lift numbers for both the intake and exhaust lobes, while a dual-pattern cam often employs a longer duration and more lift on the exhaust side. A dual-pattern cam employs more exhaust duration in order to compensate for a weak exhaust port, which is often the case with stock heads.

    An interesting phenomenon is now occurring with regard to single- and dual-pattern cams. Before the days of excellent aftermarket heads for the small-block Chevy, most cam manufacturers built single-pattern cams. Once these companies discovered that dual-pattern cams made more power, these cams became the new hot ticket. The emerging pattern now is that most aftermarket heads offer such strong exhaust ports that the shift to a single-pattern cam will make more power. Expect to see the cam companies again move back to an emphasis on single-pattern cams as cylinder heads continue to improve.

    Cam Selection

    It’s tough to condense this massive subject down into a few short paragraphs, but the key to cam selection is to be brutally truthful when it comes to how you intend to use the engine in question. If you intend to build a daily driver, keep the duration short with an eye toward decent lift for the length of the duration. Don’t succumb to the temptation to put the biggest cam you can find into your daily driver. All the cam companies offer comprehensive cam selection procedures based on compression, cruise rpm at 60 mph, and transmission type. This is an attempt to establish a torquey cam selection that will not kill low-speed power with too much overlap.

    Conclusion

    We really needed about 10 more pages to adequately cover the topic of camshaft basics, but short of that, lift and duration are the most critical points to understanding cam timing. Proper camshaft timing is critical to extracting the most power from any engine and it’s difficult to hit the power bull’s-eye on the first try. If camshafts seem a bit confusing, you’re on the right track to zeroing in on understanding the basics. Once you’ve mastered the basics, you can then move on to more complex issues like overlap, asymmetrical lobes, inverted flank roller profiles, and intriguing stuff like that. Hey, it’s gotta be more fun than collecting butterflies.



    Read more: http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te...#ixzz2Emu5NCo1
    Last edited by IDRIVEAG8GT; 12-12-2012 at 11:24 AM.
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  2. #122
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    Tl;dr

  3. #123
    Senior Tuner IDRIVEAG8GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlrx7 View Post
    Tl;dr
    Derp?
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  4. #124
    Senior Tuner DSteck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carlrx7 View Post
    Tl;dr
    +1

    I'd rather just pay PatG $25.

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  5. #125
    Senior Tuner IDRIVEAG8GT's Avatar
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    Kind of funny how when I post something useful in the concept of Mechanical Design, no one gives a damn.

    Eh, whatever, all I know is the article helped me greatly to connecting the two missing pieces between cam over crank timing, versus that of the injector.
    Last edited by IDRIVEAG8GT; 12-12-2012 at 12:56 AM.
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  6. #126
    Senior Tuner DSteck's Avatar
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    People don't have a long attention span. If you can't condense something down into your own words concisely, it'll get passed over.

    As a BSME, that article is just a long winded mechatronics intro. It's just not engaging to read. It's not the core content... It's the writing style.
    Last edited by DSteck; 12-12-2012 at 08:33 AM.

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  7. #127
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    if it makes you feel warm and fuzzy, i read it.
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  8. #128
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    I read it to. The writing style was fine. Sometimes when things are well written, there aren't questions left over.

    I worked with a guy that left our company and went to work for a company that was trying to make production servo/electric actuated valves rather than rely on cams.

    Imagine being able to adjust all aspects to valve actuation (lift, duration, overlap, timing, etc) in real time depending on driving situation.

    The company was around for ~5 years or so, and I think they eventually shut down.

    It's too bad as this would have been a massive leap forward in technology. I think the hardware and power required to move valves that fast was the biggest challenge.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10_SS View Post
    I read it to. The writing style was fine. Sometimes when things are well written, there aren't questions left over.

    I worked with a guy that left our company and went to work for a company that was trying to make production servo/electric actuated valves rather than rely on cams.

    Imagine being able to adjust all aspects to valve actuation (lift, duration, overlap, timing, etc) in real time depending on driving situation.

    The company was around for ~5 years or so, and I think they eventually shut down.

    It's too bad as this would have been a massive leap forward in technology. I think the hardware and power required to move valves that fast was the biggest challenge.
    Isn't F1 solenoid actuated? I read it too, I'm not a magazine fan, too much marketing involved I like books
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  10. #130
    Senior Tuner IDRIVEAG8GT's Avatar
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    There's just a handful of people out there like me that have a rough time visualizing all of the collected data and making it work. That's why I posted it. Like I said, some of this is from the Super Chevy Tech Article, but 2 or 3 paragraphs in there I added myself to be able to shed some light on the actual rotational effects and precise aftermath of each valve event.

    I'm just a guy who wants to know exactly how and why something happens within an engine, and to make a justifiable change I need all the details. I've seen longer posts written on here as well.

    Anyways I saw a post above about Pat G. Nothing wrong with him personally but he bases all of his "custom" specifications off of Comp cores. I personally wouldn't have a Comp shoved up my ass sideways. He also hasn't bridged the void between differences in lobe separation and what really happens to a Forced Induction engine.

    Otherwise the man's a genius, but until he starts offering Lunati cores with both LL and PL lobe material I won't do business with him. That's why I spec my own cams.
    Last edited by IDRIVEAG8GT; 12-12-2012 at 11:00 AM.
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  11. #131
    Senior Tuner IDRIVEAG8GT's Avatar
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    I just realized I forgot to add overlap to the article. This is directly from Super Chevy and is also very useful. I haven't touched anything on this article.

    What Is Lobe Separation?
    Lobe separation angle is NOT the same thing as the lobe centerlines, although it does directly involve them. Lobe separation is the number of degrees between the point when the exhaust valve reaches maximum lift and the point that the intake valve reaches maximum lift. Those two max lift points are the lobe centerlines and usually fall somewhere in the 102- to 122-degree range.

    You can calculate lobe separation by adding the intake and exhaust lobe centerline figures together and dividing the sum by 2 (Ex: 110 intake center line + 114 exhaust center line= 224/2= 112 lobe separation). This also is the figure needed to determine how much the intake lobe may be "advanced." To calculate intake lobe advance, simply subtract the intake lobe centerline from the lobe separation angle (112-110= 2). The difference is how much advance is ground into your cam, 2 degrees in this example. It's also important to remember that you cannot change lobe separation or intake lobe advance after the cam is ground. Lobe separation is not the same as valve overlap either, as some people mistakenly identify it. Overlap is simply the degrees that both valves are open at the same time (see diagram).

    Typically with street cams, the farther you spread the lobe centers apart with a wide lobe-separation angle, like 116 degrees, the less overlap you get. Although both wide (112-116) and narrow (102-110) lobe-separation angles do have some effect on overlap, it's still possible to get tons of overlap with a very wide lobe-separation angle. Race cams like those used in Pro Stock and Pro nitrous applications usually have a very high lobe-separation angle of 116 degrees and above, yet still have lots of overlap because the intake vale opens very early in the cycle while the exhaust valve has not closed very far yet.

    It's the scavenging effect caused by this that pulls the fresh fuel/air charge into the chamber. Why is all this important? It all has to do with the cylinder heads, exhaust system, and how well the engine will breathe. If you've got inefficient cylinder heads or a poor-breathing exhaust system, the wrong lobe separation angle might not pull enough fresh charge into the cylinder and you'd lose power.
    Last edited by IDRIVEAG8GT; 12-12-2012 at 11:27 AM.
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  12. #132
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    My Pat G cam didn't come from Comp, forgot who, but it took 6 weeks and its on a LXL lobe.

  13. #133
    Senior Tuner DSteck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDRIVEAG8GT View Post
    Anyways I saw a post above about Pat G. Nothing wrong with him personally but he bases all of his "custom" specifications off of Comp cores. I personally wouldn't have a Comp shoved up my ass sideways. He also hasn't bridged the void between differences in lobe separation and what really happens to a Forced Induction engine.

    Otherwise the man's a genius, but until he starts offering Lunati cores with both LL and PL lobe material I won't do business with him. That's why I spec my own cams.
    I guess my +1000whp pump gas Z06 is all sorts of screwed up having a PatG cam, same with my buddy's +1100whp pump gas 16psi Camaro. Dude can't spec a cam to save his life.

    Quote Originally Posted by carlrx7 View Post
    My Pat G cam didn't come from Comp, forgot who, but it took 6 weeks and its on a LXL lobe.
    Mine came from Geoff at EPS with LXL.

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  14. #134
    Senior Tuner IDRIVEAG8GT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSteck View Post
    I guess my +1000whp pump gas Z06 is all sorts of screwed up having a PatG cam, same with my buddy's +1100whp pump gas 16psi Camaro. Dude can't spec a cam to save his life.


    Mine came from Geoff at EPS with LXL.
    I think you got the wrong idea. I give credit where credit is due, but awhile back we had a long conversation about varying boost over tighter or looser lobe separations. What he couldn't do is effectively explain limitations between overlap versus overall airflow provided by the heads. Granted this was a long time back, he spec'ed me a cam that was a 232/244 .575/.595 on a 116+2 as a blower cam. Made 735 horsepower and 763 lb.ft at 9 pounds of boost. But I was extremely unsatisfied with its drivability and jitteriness.

    At a later date after doing some research and throwing out some numbers, the guys at Lunati and I came up with a 236/245 .617/.612 on a 114.

    Of course this required more aggressive springs, but with the same pulley making only 8psi it made 799 horsepower and 768 lb.ft of torque. Power started coming in at 2,800 rpm but carried maximum power at a span of over 300 rpm farther before starting to drop.

    Idk you tell me. Everyone has their preferances but alot of time and money has went into what I know. Not to mention it sounds much better at idle.
    Last edited by IDRIVEAG8GT; 12-12-2012 at 01:50 PM.
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  15. #135
    Senior Tuner DSteck's Avatar
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    So you're looking for an explanation on why a mre aggressive cam made more power longer?

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  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSteck View Post
    So you're looking for an explanation on why a mre aggressive cam made more power longer?
    And began making power sooner, not to mention idles with more vacuum.
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  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSteck View Post
    Mine came from Geoff at EPS with LXL.
    Yea! That's the guy. He personally called me when he got the form and when it was ready.

    -Carl

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    Quote Originally Posted by IDRIVEAG8GT View Post
    And began making power sooner, not to mention idles with more vacuum.
    the lower LSA makes the DCR higher,

  19. #139
    Senior Tuner DSteck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IDRIVEAG8GT View Post
    And began making power sooner, not to mention idles with more vacuum.
    With spark exactly where it needs to be, I'm sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by carlrx7 View Post
    Yea! That's the guy. He personally called me when he got the form and when it was ready.

    -Carl
    Yea, Geoff was really good. I wouldn't hesitate to get another cam from him.

    Quote Originally Posted by carlrx7 View Post
    the lower LSA makes the DCR higher,
    PatG cames don't work man.

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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by DSteck View Post
    Like I said, I only use this for idle calcs.
    I came to this same conclusion, that I only need to change the EOIT up to a low RPM, like 1,000 or 1,200 or so. After that, my 8* of overlap only takes just over 1 ms to occur, in which time not much fuel can escape into the exhaust due to the short time window and the velocity of the intake charge.

    When I first installed the cam, before I changed EOIT form stock, I had much better cruising MPG. Now that I have retarded EOIT across the board to after the EVC, my MPG has suffered. Plus I have turned DOD back on and the IPW is double what it is when DOD is inactive at any RPM since the same airflow is moving through 1/2 the cylinders which would require my EOIT to occur around 600*.

    DSteck, thanks for sharing your spreadsheet, it helped me work through my thoughts on this and hopefully find a happy medium.