2010 Camaro Tune Question

[hantzum]

Got a 2010 SS here that we just did a cam swap on! Cam is a .226/.238 .605/.615 113LSA. Did the tune and the car sounds great and runs seems to run pretty good! Gt a 12.9 WOT AFR and a 14-15 AFR at daily driving! It idles a little rich about 12-12.5 which I cant seem to fix! Thing is when he races the guys he raced before he loses by more then he did before the cam! Car seems to have slowed down but there are no hardware problems! He is shifting at 7100 and still seems to be slower! Havent dynoed the car yet but it should put down about 500-525 to the tires! Any suggestions on the tune that anyone would do different?
An help would be appreciated?
Thanks,
Jake

[Roger Ramjet]

Because of the 7100 RPM mentioned, I'll assume this is a LS3 motor with the M6 trans and a very tall 3.01 1st gear.
You also didn't say what other modifications have been done.
First, I think 12.9 AFR is a little lean - 12.5 to 12.7 would make me feel better.

I ran the new cam in EA Pro to show the power range changes vs. the factory cam. As expected, the power range moves up the RPM scale and there is a good power increase but not as much as you think should be there.

There is only one thing missing and that is GEARS (4.10 or 4.30).

[hantzum]

Because of the 7100 RPM mentioned, I'll assume this is a LS3 motor with the M6 trans and a very tall 3.01 1st gear.
You also didn't say what other modifications have been done.
First, I think 12.9 AFR is a little lean - 12.5 to 12.7 would make me feel better.

I ran the new cam in EA Pro to show the power range changes vs. the factory cam. As expected, the power range moves up the RPM scale and there is a good power increase but not as much as you think should be there.

There is only one thing missing and that is GEARS (4.10 or 4.30).

Yes M6 LS3 and the gear ratio is stock!

[Roger Ramjet]

The stock cam needs 4.10 gears. That cam could use 4.30s!

[DSteck]

I run LS3s richer... around 1.1744 on the PE table. They like fuel.

Before I go any further, you're going to destroy that LS3 if you keep revving it that high. That cam won't make power up there, and the valve train and rotating assembly really won't survive that.

Don't take this post as me being mean... Think of it as tough love.

1. Don't set the target idle speed to the same across the board. You should idle it higher at colder coolant temps. I typically just add a set value to the entire table... like 200rpm or so.

2. Final idle airflow minimum table is completely jacked. There's no way it needs 2.000 lb/min of airflow to prevent stalling. That table needs work... I bet the car has really weird idle recovery.

3. Startup airflow table needs work too. It should have a similar shape to the factory table (just with increased airflow values).

4. I have a hard time believing the MAF is properly calibrated considering the whole thing was just multiplied by 10%.

5. If you're not going to tune the SD coefficients, you need to put the car in pure MAF mode. This is done under the Airflow -> Dynamic tab.

6. Rev limiter... see above about spinning to 7200rpm. Bad idea.

7. PE table... what the hell? Why is it set to 1.0 from 1750rpm and above? That's commanding a WOT AFR of 14.7!

8. Spark... this is pretty bad. Only 8º of idle timing is way too low! Set that table back to stock... a stock idle spark table will work decent for that cam. If anything, add a degree or two to the idle timing. The High Octane spark table has WAY too little timing down low (refer to idle spark comment) and WAY too much timing up top! You just added a blanket 6º up top.

9. Why'd you multiply the Knock Retard Decay rate table by 10%? It appears you did the same to the Base Retard Attack table.




I'm not surprised this thing doesn't make power or run well. The tune is very far from where it needs to be. It has way too much timing, and isn't really tuned at all... It's probably knocking like crazy.

There's no way that cam will make 500-520whp without a lot more help.

[hantzum]

I run LS3s richer... around 1.1744 on the PE table. They like fuel.

Before I go any further, you're going to destroy that LS3 if you keep revving it that high. That cam won't make power up there, and the valve train and rotating assembly really won't survive that.

Don't take this post as me being mean... Think of it as tough love.

1. Don't set the target idle speed to the same across the board. You should idle it higher at colder coolant temps. I typically just add a set value to the entire table... like 200rpm or so.

2. Final idle airflow minimum table is completely jacked. There's no way it needs 2.000 lb/min of airflow to prevent stalling. That table needs work... I bet the car has really weird idle recovery.

3. Startup airflow table needs work too. It should have a similar shape to the factory table (just with increased airflow values).

4. I have a hard time believing the MAF is properly calibrated considering the whole thing was just multiplied by 10%.

5. If you're not going to tune the SD coefficients, you need to put the car in pure MAF mode. This is done under the Airflow -> Dynamic tab.

6. Rev limiter... see above about spinning to 7200rpm. Bad idea.

7. PE table... what the hell? Why is it set to 1.0 from 1750rpm and above? That's commanding a WOT AFR of 14.7!

8. Spark... this is pretty bad. Only 8º of idle timing is way too low! Set that table back to stock... a stock idle spark table will work decent for that cam. If anything, add a degree or two to the idle timing. The High Octane spark table has WAY too little timing down low (refer to idle spark comment) and WAY too much timing up top! You just added a blanket 6º up top.

9. Why'd you multiply the Knock Retard Decay rate table by 10%? It appears you did the same to the Base Retard Attack table.




I'm not surprised this thing doesn't make power or run well. The tune is very far from where it needs to be. It has way too much timing, and isn't really tuned at all... It's probably knocking like crazy.

There's no way that cam will make 500-520whp without a lot more help.

Appreciate all the advice and its hard to respond to everything but thats why I posted the tune; to get feedback from other tuners!

A couple of things; the cams power band is 6600 which having a shift point at 7000 is above band level dropping the rpm right into the power band in the following gear, the valve train has double reinforced springs at a .650 lit and hardened 3/8 pushrods. I pushed my LS1 above that RPM when it was stock with a very similar valve train and I never killed it!

The car idles great and has no issue picking up, no knocking or upper end performing, the driver just says the car doesn't seem much faster!

I know the PE being set at 1.00 across the board from 1750RPM was gonna get some feedback but when I had it had 1.750 the car was running at 11.5 AFR at WOT. I pulled back until we got it at 12.8! At one point during WOT it hit 13 which I know is a tad lean but not too bad!

During the log the MAF read at a solid 21.3lb which I have noticed that LS3's like!

As for putting in pure MAF mode; I will have to try that!

I will make some adjustments to the target idle speed as recommended and the same with start up airflow but as I stated before the car starts fine with no issue or wants of dying!

I guess the next best thing would actually post the next data log so you can really see what the car is doing! Im kicking myself in the ass for not saving the last one! Don't know why I didn't just closed it out without thinking!

As for the constructive criticism I don't mind it at all man, thats why I posted the tune, getting some feedback is better than nothing and trying to figue it out on my own.

Any more suggestions please let me know. I will get a log posted ASAP.

[edcmat-l1]

and hardened 3/8 pushrods.

Take them out and replace with 5/16s.

Looking at the tune............wow............Can't believe it hasn't pinged itself to death yet.

[DSteck]

Based on your reply to my post, you have no business tuning that car. Sorry, but that's the truth. You aren't calibrating anything... Just fudging numbers until the result is sort of OK. If it idled so great, why does it idle at 12.5?

That car feels slower because the tune is very far from where it needs to be.

As far as 7200rpm, I will bet money it isn't making any power up there. Post up a dyno sheet and let's just put that point to be. FYI, just because it has springs and pushrods doesn't mean anything. Those are heavy valves.

[hantzum]

Based on your reply to my post, you have no business tuning that car. Sorry, but that's the truth. You aren't calibrating anything... Just fudging numbers until the result is sort of OK. If it idled so great, why does it idle at 12.5?

That car feels slower because the tune is very far from where it needs to be.

As far as 7200rpm, I will bet money it isn't making any power up there. Post up a dyno sheet and let's just put that point to be. FYI, just because it has springs and pushrods doesn't mean anything. Those are heavy valves.

Ok so what are ur suggestions then? That's why I made the post! This forum is used for useful suggestions on that tuners are having problems with! The calibrations are being done with the maf, iac, etc! There are some things on the car that have to be fudged and moved around and thus causing other effects thus the pe table being set at 1.000 instead of a 1.175. That's what the car likes! The AFR does not lie! It could be fattened up at wot but daily driving is right there at a solid 14.7! The idle afr could use some work but that's why I made the post, what can be done with a gen 4 PCM to fix a rich idle and slower top end on the car! I guess I really wont know until We will get a dyno done; since a butt dyno isnt the most accurate! This is the first gen 4 that I have really tuned! Way different parameters then the f-body, still a bit of a learning curve! Not being a dick in response to ur suggestions just tying to get some helpful info! Will try and get a data log posted tonight!
Thanks again

[edcmat-l1]

Those are heavy valves.

And heavy ass pushrods, if they are indeed 3/8s.

Ok so what are ur suggestions then? That's why I made the post! This forum is used for useful suggestions on that tuners are having problems with! The calibrations are being done with the maf, iac, etc! There are some things on the car that have to be fudged and moved around and thus causing other effects thus the pe table being set at 1.000 instead of a 1.175. That's what the car likes! The AFR does not lie! It could be fattened up at wot but daily driving is right there at a solid 14.7! The idle afr could use some work but that's why I made the post, what can be done with a gen 4 PCM to fix a rich idle and slower top end on the car! I guess I really wont know until We will get a dyno done; since a butt dyno isnt the most accurate! This is the first gen 4 that I have really tuned! Way different parameters then the f-body, still a bit of a learning curve! Not being a dick in response to ur suggestions just tying to get some helpful info! Will try and get a data log posted tonight!
Thanks again

You aren't "Calibrating" anything. You are hacking it up. Case in point, setting the PE to 1.00 to achieve a set A/F. That's hacking.

The BRAF, hacked.

The knock retard decay, OMG that's hacked.

There's too much timing in it WOT, and not enough at idle.

The E38 cars are not LS1/411 cars. They have different parameters, they respond to A/F and timing differently. Go back to stock on most all of it, and make smaller changes. Just with the timing and knock retard decay, you're playing with fire. If it pings, it will put the timing back so fast it could cause some serious issues, as in damage.

Just because your A/F ratio at cruise is OK, does not mean the tune is good, or well calibrated. The PCM has the ability to pull or add up to 50% of the fueling. It will set a code at that extreme, but still, it has the ability. So, just because your WB says it's 14.6:1, doesn't mean the tune is good. Now, if the A/F ratio is good at cruise, and your trims are +/- less than 5%, and your WOT fueling is spot on to your commanded, and your idle airflow matches your BRAF, and your idle timing doesn't have to work it's ass off to keep the idle stable, THEN, you can call it a decent tune.

Go back to stock and start over. Remember, a good calibration means the least amount of correction by the PCM has to be done, and the end results in fueling and spark are what you're actually commanding. NOT what you've had to fudge.

[hantzum]

And heavy ass pushrods, if they are indeed 3/8s.



You aren't "Calibrating" anything. You are hacking it up. Case in point, setting the PE to 1.00 to achieve a set A/F. That's hacking.

The BRAF, hacked.

The knock retard decay, OMG that's hacked.

There's too much timing in it WOT, and not enough at idle.

The E38 cars are not LS1/411 cars. They have different parameters, they respond to A/F and timing differently. Go back to stock on most all of it, and make smaller changes. Just with the timing and knock retard decay, you're playing with fire. If it pings, it will put the timing back so fast it could cause some serious issues, as in damage.

Just because your A/F ratio at cruise is OK, does not mean the tune is good, or well calibrated. The PCM has the ability to pull or add up to 50% of the fueling. It will set a code at that extreme, but still, it has the ability. So, just because your WB says it's 14.6:1, doesn't mean the tune is good. Now, if the A/F ratio is good at cruise, and your trims are +/- less than 5%, and your WOT fueling is spot on to your commanded, and your idle airflow matches your BRAF, and your idle timing doesn't have to work it's ass off to keep the idle stable, THEN, you can call it a decent tune.

Go back to stock and start over. Remember, a good calibration means the least amount of correction by the PCM has to be done, and the end results in fueling and spark are what you're actually commanding. NOT what you've had to fudge.

Very cool, I planned on putting it back tonstock and making a the minor adjustments in the first place! I'll keep u poSted

[Fifth Gen SS]

I have to agree with everyone on this thread. I have the same car with the same cam specs. You can tweak the computer to give you whatever AFR you want but by not tuning it correctly, the engine will grenade when the atmospherics change from what it was when it was tuned because all the parameters it references are crap!

As far as 7100 RPMs......... I have to throw the BS flag, no way that motor takes that speed, and I know you will not build any power after about 6400, I can feel my car dying out in that range.

HP expectations are way off. you should be expecting 450 to 460 at the wheels assuming the normal bolt-ons and 91 octane.

bottom line, The steps are simple to tune that car, road tuning you should have a safe, 80% tune in a day... easy.

[DSteck]

Ok so what are ur suggestions then? That's why I made the post! This forum is used for useful suggestions on that tuners are having problems with! The calibrations are being done with the maf, iac, etc! There are some things on the car that have to be fudged and moved around and thus causing other effects thus the pe table being set at 1.000 instead of a 1.175. That's what the car likes! The AFR does not lie! It could be fattened up at wot but daily driving is right there at a solid 14.7! The idle afr could use some work but that's why I made the post, what can be done with a gen 4 PCM to fix a rich idle and slower top end on the car! I guess I really wont know until We will get a dyno done; since a butt dyno isnt the most accurate! This is the first gen 4 that I have really tuned! Way different parameters then the f-body, still a bit of a learning curve! Not being a dick in response to ur suggestions just tying to get some helpful info! Will try and get a data log posted tonight!
Thanks again

edcmat-l1 summed it up pretty well (and saved me a lot of typing). You aren't calibrating anything. You're just (dangerously) pushing random values around to try and get a desired output.

Why did you pull out all the idle timing? Why did you add so much timing at WOT? Why haven't you actually calibrated the MAF? Why did you just throw a ton of airflow into one section of the startup air and final idle airflow tables? Why did you modify the knock retard decay settings?

[hantzum]

Ok,
As suggested I went back to a bone stock tune and worked my way up properly calibrating and watching the AFR without a hack tune! The car runs a lot better with fewer changes then I expected! Now the car at WOT is at a stable 12.6-12.7 with a commanded 12.66 at WOT. Idle is a roughly 14.7 with it bouncing up and down back and forth like normal! It idles better and sounds better! So, with all that out of the way there is one problem that I could not seem to fix after more than 1 1/2 hours of data logging and tuning! When the car is shifted into neutral the RPMS will drop to 400 and pull back to 1300 then back down then back up and then it will correct itself back to the 950 idle! Any ideas on what could be done to fix this?

I have gone ahead and posted a data log and new tune of the car to see what we can do with it dropping in RPM in neutral!
Thanks

[hantzum]

Forget the data log I posted! That was from the tune before the cam install. Here is the new data log taken about one hour ago! This one actually has the idle dropping down to 400 and back up and back down and back up!
Thanks

[DSteck]

Final idle airflow needs to be fixed.

[rynez06]

Appreciate all the advice and its hard to respond to everything but thats why I posted the tune; to get feedback from other tuners!

A couple of things; the cams power band is 6600 which having a shift point at 7000 is above band level dropping the rpm right into the power band in the following gear, the valve train has double reinforced springs at a .650 lit and hardened 3/8 pushrods. I pushed my LS1 above that RPM when it was stock with a very similar valve train and I never killed it!

The car idles great and has no issue picking up, no knocking or upper end performing, the driver just says the car doesn't seem much faster!

I know the PE being set at 1.00 across the board from 1750RPM was gonna get some feedback but when I had it had 1.750 the car was running at 11.5 AFR at WOT. I pulled back until we got it at 12.8! At one point during WOT it hit 13 which I know is a tad lean but not too bad!

During the log the MAF read at a solid 21.3lb which I have noticed that LS3's like!

As for putting in pure MAF mode; I will have to try that!

I will make some adjustments to the target idle speed as recommended and the same with start up airflow but as I stated before the car starts fine with no issue or wants of dying!

I guess the next best thing would actually post the next data log so you can really see what the car is doing! Im kicking myself in the ass for not saving the last one! Don't know why I didn't just closed it out without thinking!

As for the constructive criticism I don't mind it at all man, thats why I posted the tune, getting some feedback is better than nothing and trying to figue it out on my own.

Any more suggestions please let me know. I will get a log posted ASAP.

if your commanded AF at 1.174 was causing a actual af of 11.5, then dial in the MAF table in those frequency ranges, until you achieve your desired AF.... that is tuning 101 my friend, i am surpised this motor isnt hurt, with that timing,AF, gearing and vehicle weight, i bet the car is knocking real bad, and of course your not going to see it in the logging because your knock recovery rate table has been maxout....

[azvren]

Can anyone chime in on the new revised tune, is the tune where it should be?

[FASSTRUK]

Your IAT spark tables are pulling timing below 113*...fix that, and you have brake torque settings killing you too...max those figures. That should prevent the loss of power you described earlier. Another area to look at is the PE spark tables...most tunes have them at zero.

[tmizer]

... and you have brake torque settings killing you too...max those figures. That should prevent the loss of power you described earlier...

On a 2010 won't the console traction control button effectively bypass those torque settings?