What did I get myself into?

**rbc** · 05-30-2008

Hi all
1st time Ford tuning and I picked a winner to start.
07 Mustang 4.6l with a Ford racing whipple.
Vehicle came in after tuning at another shop w/SCT.We baselined it and the A/F's were in the High 12 low 13's.And several part throttle problems.
So first thing I copied & removed the SCT to see if the Pro Cal was still there.
It was so I copied and removed it to make sure I had the original Tune.That worked so I copied it also.So far so good.Here's where things go bad I tried to reinstall the Pro cal tune and now the car wont start with any of the tunes.
I attatched all of the Tunes I've been trying to use but now I'm lost.
Any Ideas?

Thanks Bob

**Fox95** · 05-31-2008

I am a little tired so maybe that's why I am not following your thread fully.

By I can tell you this much. Once you start mixing and mtching tunes from other tuners your going to go downhill in a big hurry.

I have not run into the problem your having but I have had an issue with a customers car who was using a diablo to tune on top of a sct file and then another sct ontop of the diablo and in the end he rendered the diablo tuner useless and the cars factory stock cal file was locked in the diablo and coulnt be retrieved. So one of the sct tuners had a modded diablo blower tune on it that was considered the stock cal in its eyes.

Its always the right thing to do to start with the factory stock cal for tuning.

Always when tuning Return the ECM back to bone stock read it with hp save it and save a backup of it on a USB thumb drive and put the thumb drive in your dresser under you socks.

you will someday crash your laptop or break it and you'll lose your original files!!!!!!

Good luck and let us know what the resolve to your problem is if you find it

By the way what's the processor code on the ecm your working on? I may have a stock file I could posibly send you but you'll burn up some credits licensing it to try and see if it will get you up and running. I havent tried this so I can't gurantee if it works or not. Just an idea

**rbc** · 05-31-2008

I understand what your saying thats why I saved each tune as I removed the stack of tunes .I thought I was ok because it appeared I had the stock tune.My plan was to build a new tune off the original base to eliminate all the confusion.Apparently something went wrong along the way.Any one of the tunes I posted will load without issues but the car just cranks but no start.I know I caused some sort of conflict just need a way back to square 1.

Thanks
Bob

Originally Posted by Fox95

I am a little tired so maybe that's why I am not following your thread fully.

By I can tell you this much. Once you start mixing and mtching tunes from other tuners your going to go downhill in a big hurry.

I have not run into the problem your having but I have had an issue with a customers car who was using a diablo to tune on top of a sct file and then another sct ontop of the diablo and in the end he rendered the diablo tuner useless and the cars factory stock cal file was locked in the diablo and coulnt be retrieved. So one of the sct tuners had a modded diablo blower tune on it that was considered the stock cal in its eyes.

Its always the right thing to do to start with the factory stock cal for tuning.

Always when tuning Return the ECM back to bone stock read it with hp save it and save a backup of it on a USB thumb drive and put the thumb drive in your dresser under you socks.

you will someday crash your laptop or break it and you'll lose your original files!!!!!!

Good luck and let us know what the resolve to your problem is if you find it

By the way what's the processor code on the ecm your working on? I may have a stock file I could posibly send you but you'll burn up some credits licensing it to try and see if it will get you up and running. I havent tried this so I can't gurantee if it works or not. Just an idea

**Bill@HPTuners** · 05-31-2008

Check for any dtc's.

You listed 4 different tunes with 3 different operating systems, why were you switching between operating systems?

In any case I know with GM's if you go back & forth between operating systems you occasionally need to relink the bcm or vats, I can only assume its the same with fords.

-Bill

**rbc** · 05-31-2008

No DTC's.
How would I have changed the operating system?
Is this caused by the way the tunes were originally installed?
How do I correct it?

Thanks for your time.
Bob

**Bill@HPTuners** · 05-31-2008

Im not really sure what you did or what the tunes represent
your #1 tune has one OS
your #2 tune has a different os than #1
your #3 & 4 tunes have a different os than both 1 & 2

I'm not sure what exactly you've done, whats been flashed to your vehicle & what hasn't & why in reality.

Under normal circumbstances(and as outlined in our help file) you should've read the file in your pcm, edited that file & wrote it back to the pcm, doing it any other way will only cause for confusion & possible issues.

-Bill

**rbc** · 05-31-2008

Bill
Thats what I was trying to do .The other tunes were all in the car. Evidently the previous tuner had used the SCT over the Ford procal.I didn't want to render his SCT useless so I removed it but it appears the SCT was written over the Pro cal.So once I removed the SCT I ran the car and the Tune that SCT said was original turned out to be another supercharged tune.So I then took the Pro cal out to get to the original stock 4.6l tune. The 4th tune is the
original 4.6 tune rewritten as a baseline for the supercharger.I didn't write those other tunes I just copied each one as I removed them.I thought I was doing the right thing by starting with the original 4.6 tune and saving copies of each.As far as changing the OS I don't know.
Thanks
Bob

Originally Posted by Bill@HPTuners

Im not really sure what you did or what the tunes represent
your #1 tune has one OS
your #2 tune has a different os than #1
your #3 & 4 tunes have a different os than both 1 & 2

I'm not sure what exactly you've done, whats been flashed to your vehicle & what hasn't & why in reality.

Under normal circumbstances(and as outlined in our help file) you should've read the file in your pcm, edited that file & wrote it back to the pcm, doing it any other way will only cause for confusion & possible issues.

-Bill

**crazytaz45** · 05-31-2008

i think the quick and easy way to fix your problem is to just pull the cumputer from your car and have ford flash it to stock.

**rbc** · 05-31-2008

Will they do that without the car?
I don't mind starting over.I'm going nowhere fast at this point.

Thanks
Bob

Originally Posted by crazytaz45

i think the quick and easy way to fix your problem is to just pull the cumputer from your car and have ford flash it to stock.

**Fox95** · 05-31-2008

The SCT xcal's will only swap tunes, they will not overwrite anything.

So if the stock tune was really saved in the SCT, and you chose the option on the xcal "return to stock" then the car would be reprogrammed with whatever tune was stored in the SCT as the vehicle's stock file.

Now if you somehow flashed a "custom" tune from the SCT into the car, and then read that tune with the HP unit and modded and reloaded it, then your screwed. The Xcal will not load the "stock" tune stored in it back over what's in the car.

The only way you can write over top of SCT tunes is to use another tuner, HP, Diablo, etc... Like I said the xcal will only swap tunes back and forth with one ecm.

At this point I can only suspect that you started tuning a cal in the ecm with HPtuners that was not the original ford cal.

**rbc** · 05-31-2008

I'm pretty sure I have the stock tune.One of the four tunes has stock injector scaling.I'm pretty sure the "stock tune" in the SCT was from the Ford Procal.After removing the SCT I did a read and compared the 2 while both tunes are for a supercharger there are considerable differences.Next I used the procal handheld to return to stock tune and read that.Each step in the process completed as directed.So 3 of the 4 tunes came out of this car.I took the stock tune(the one with the small injector scaling) and copied the Procal tune to it as a baseline .My thoughts were to go all the way back to stock and build from there.Am I that far off base?I don't make any claims to be an expert but this seemed to be a logical approach.

I'm looking for a way to Just Reboot.

Thanks for your time
Bob

Originally Posted by Fox95

The SCT xcal's will only swap tunes, they will not overwrite anything.

So if the stock tune was really saved in the SCT, and you chose the option on the xcal "return to stock" then the car would be reprogrammed with whatever tune was stored in the SCT as the vehicle's stock file.

Now if you somehow flashed a "custom" tune from the SCT into the car, and then read that tune with the HP unit and modded and reloaded it, then your screwed. The Xcal will not load the "stock" tune stored in it back over what's in the car.

The only way you can write over top of SCT tunes is to use another tuner, HP, Diablo, etc... Like I said the xcal will only swap tunes back and forth with one ecm.

At this point I can only suspect that you started tuning a cal in the ecm with HPtuners that was not the original ford cal.

**RWTD** · 06-01-2008

The code really doesn't matter, per se. You can swap most S197 tunes between on another, provided the Equizzer matches. If the Equizzer doesn't match, the vehicle will NOT start! One can easily change the Equizzer to match the code that's currently in the pcm. However, HPT doesn't give access to the Equizzer, unfortunately.

These following two tunes should interchange, due to the Equizzer matching:

07mustangwhippleSCTtune.hpt = Equizzer 396
Calibration ID: FPAF053

07mustangwhippleProCal.hpt = Equizzer 396
Calibration ID: FPASAG6

As for the two tunes, SCT doesn't have these in their database. It seems to me that it's an old file, which has been replaced by a newer Ford Racing tune. Or, either it's a new file altogether, and SCT hasn't yet put it in their database. However, it IS a Ford Racing calibration, so I can GUARANTEE you that the Equizzer values are different than the above two tunes. So you MUST use the ProCal to return the vehicle back to the factory tune before you start using a tune with a different Equizzer, otherwise the vehicle will NOT start!

07mustangwhippleHPtune.hpt
07mustangstocktune.hpt
Calibration ID: FPASAA2

So you will know, the 07mustangstocktune.hpt is NOT a stock factory Ford tune. With that being said, it does have the stock values for basically everything I lookd at. Off the top of my head, I would guess the real Ford factory tune is based off the FPAF053 calibration, which is a TNJ2 boxcode (look on the pcm of the car and see if you see a little white sticker with this on it). My guess is that when you used the Ford Racing ProCal tool to return the car back to stock, that it didn't return some of the calibration info back to stock, therefore HPT read this file out as a FPASAA2.

Also, your Voltage vs. Flow vs. Pressure table (FPVT = Fuel Pump Voltage Table) needs to be SERIOUSLY rescalled to reflect the voltages and ranges needed for that particular car, otherwise you're going to have continued fueling issues (erratic fuel pressure) once you go past 3.99 on the logged Flow Rate, especially once in heavy boost. If you've logged this table while tuning (there's approx. 5 to 6 parameters you need to log to do this), you'll notice you max out the flow rate after about 350 to 400 rwhp. This table must ALWAYS properly reflect the actual voltages and ranges for the vehicle, otherwise you'll be chasing your tail with your head.

A good start is to copy in the GT500 values (the voltage values, the flow rate values, and psi values), since the Whipple kits come with the GT500 dual fuel pump and dual FPDM arrangement. However, one issue with doing this with HPT is that you do not have the ability to increase the Inferred MAP limit (this needs to be increased so that the pcm recognizes when the car is in boost), nor the Flow Rate limit, like SCT gives you the ability to do, so you increasing the axis-ranges of this table, without increasing the range limits first, will do absolute jack. The GT500 already has these values increased straight from Ford, so it wouldn't be hard at all for HPT to implement the changes. That will probably never get done any time soon. Oh well...

FYI, ignorant Ford Racing doesn't even account for any of this. Also, whoever tuned it with SCT didn't even do this (any competent SCT tuner should always know better than this). I'd also shoot the SCT tuner for not even accounting for the undersized injectors (by increased the DeltaP at higher fuel flows, like what Ford Racing does in their tune), so those little 34# injectors are done by around 400 to 420 rwhp.

Okay, so what will get you out of this situation of no crank? Upload one of the tunes that will match the Equizzer value that's currently in the car. Of course, you don't know which one is which, so you will need to load one in until it does. If this doesn't work, a trip to the local Ford dealer, to have the factory file reflashed back into it, will rectify this. Then you MUST copy that factory file, then build off of THAT file for the Whipple setup.

**Bill@HPTuners** · 06-01-2008

Thanks for the heads up James!

**rbc** · 06-01-2008

Thank you so much.
Can Ford reflash the computer without the car as was stated above or will I need to tow it in?
This started out as a favor for a local shop.
He had the car tuned by a local SCT guy and was nervous about the A/F #'s
he was seeing on the cars wideband.
We made a pull on our dyno and confirmed his concerns.The car made good power but was hovering around 13to1.I removed the SCT to what I assumed was the Pro cal and made a pull it lost about 15hp peak but had a much better torque curve and 11.5to 1 A/F's.I should have stopped there but he was talk about future mods so I wanted to get a baseline w/HPT so I could help him down the road.Oh well I'm getting an education.

Again thanks for your time.

Bob

Originally Posted by RWTD

The code really doesn't matter, per se. You can swap most S197 tunes between on another, provided the Equizzer matches. If the Equizzer doesn't match, the vehicle will NOT start! One can easily change the Equizzer to match the code that's currently in the pcm. However, HPT doesn't give access to the Equizzer, unfortunately.

These following two tunes should interchange, due to the Equizzer matching:

07mustangwhippleSCTtune.hpt = Equizzer 396
Calibration ID: FPAF053

07mustangwhippleProCal.hpt = Equizzer 396
Calibration ID: FPASAG6

As for the two tunes, SCT doesn't have these in their database. It seems to me that it's an old file, which has been replaced by a newer Ford Racing tune. Or, either it's a new file altogether, and SCT hasn't yet put it in their database. However, it IS a Ford Racing calibration, so I can GUARANTEE you that the Equizzer values are different than the above two tunes. So you MUST use the ProCal to return the vehicle back to the factory tune before you start using a tune with a different Equizzer, otherwise the vehicle will NOT start!

07mustangwhippleHPtune.hpt
07mustangstocktune.hpt
Calibration ID: FPASAA2

So you will know, the 07mustangstocktune.hpt is NOT a stock factory Ford tune. With that being said, it does have the stock values for basically everything I lookd at. Off the top of my head, I would guess the real Ford factory tune is based off the FPAF053 calibration, which is a TNJ2 boxcode (look on the pcm of the car and see if you see a little white sticker with this on it). My guess is that when you used the Ford Racing ProCal tool to return the car back to stock, that it didn't return some of the calibration info back to stock, therefore HPT read this file out as a FPASAA2.

Also, your Voltage vs. Flow vs. Pressure table (FPVT = Fuel Pump Voltage Table) needs to be SERIOUSLY rescalled to reflect the voltages and ranges needed for that particular car, otherwise you're going to have continued fueling issues (erratic fuel pressure) once you go past 3.99 on the logged Flow Rate, especially once in heavy boost. If you've logged this table while tuning (there's approx. 5 to 6 parameters you need to log to do this), you'll notice you max out the flow rate after about 350 to 400 rwhp. This table must ALWAYS properly reflect the actual voltages and ranges for the vehicle, otherwise you'll be chasing your tail with your head.

A good start is to copy in the GT500 values (the voltage values, the flow rate values, and psi values), since the Whipple kits come with the GT500 dual fuel pump and dual FPDM arrangement. However, one issue with doing this with HPT is that you do not have the ability to increase the Inferred MAP limit (this needs to be increased so that the pcm recognizes when the car is in boost), nor the Flow Rate limit, like SCT gives you the ability to do, so you increasing the axis-ranges of this table, without increasing the range limits first, will do absolute jack. The GT500 already has these values increased straight from Ford, so it wouldn't be hard at all for HPT to implement the changes. That will probably never get done any time soon. Oh well...

FYI, ignorant Ford Racing doesn't even account for any of this. Also, whoever tuned it with SCT didn't even do this (any competent SCT tuner should always know better than this). I'd also shoot the SCT tuner for not even accounting for the undersized injectors (by increased the DeltaP at higher fuel flows, like what Ford Racing does in their tune), so those little 34# injectors are done by around 400 to 420 rwhp.

Okay, so what will get you out of this situation of no crank? Upload one of the tunes that will match the Equizzer value that's currently in the car. Of course, you don't know which one is which, so you will need to load one in until it does. If this doesn't work, a trip to the local Ford dealer, to have the factory file reflashed back into it, will rectify this. Then you MUST copy that factory file, then build off of THAT file for the Whipple setup.

**RWTD** · 06-01-2008