I just cant seem to get rid of this KR

[BlackGS]

I don't know what plugs you run, but you could also try a colder range.

[JerryH]

That's exactly what I said

I think all that is happening is that I am having a blonde moment translating what the PT says vs what the HPT says.

If you and Bill say that:
ENGINE-SPARK CONTROL-SPARK RETARD-KOCK RETARD DECAY HIGH LOAD

...is the table we are needing to look at, I am going to accept that at face value until I can try it out myself.

A bit strange how 2 tuners look at the same thing and call it a completely different thing... lol

GPGTP: In the table we are discussing, for the HPT users, set all cell values to 136 (thats a 3 degree per second return instead of the ~ 0.8 degree/second for the PT guys). This will not eliminate KR, but it will disappear 3 times faster now when no more KR is detected. So now instead of seeing KR for 3-4 frames, you see it in ONLY 1-2 frames.

Another thing... don't go making like 5-10 changes at a time... a beginner/intermediate tuner is suggested to do 1 change, 1 scan. The advanced tuner is STRONGLY suggested to not go beyond 3 changes at a time... and that is only becuase you know the interaction of those 3 changes.

So... as a suggestion (always, feel free to do what you want, it is ONLY a suggestion):

- Your AE Enrich modifier vs speed, set all cells to 1 (no need to do anything else for the moment). Save the file under another name and flash that to your PCM.

- scan, and post that scan here.

- Now, if it is still not getting you to the O2s that you need (at least 930-940), and you want to try an experiment, open up your injector flow rate vs KPA VAC table... make note of the value in the 100 kpa cell, write it down somewhere... then increase it by 5%. Save the file under another name and flash that to your PCM.

- scan, and post that scan here.

I am adding the 2nd step as a test. What we are doing is getting a feel for if your car is fueling properly or not. If not, thats when you start doing some homework as to why not.

You are so little modifed that the smallest changes should mean very noticeable differences in your tune... IF your car is in proper mechanical running order.

Do not make spark changes, do not change the PE RPM vs TIME, do not pass go... no collecting $200 for the moment... lol.

Also, let's set some realistic expectations here. 2 degrees of KR under any circumstance on a mostly stock car is very good. 1 degree is exceptional. If you are seeing a blip here and there, don't put too much sweat into it. It is VERY hard and a car must be VERY well modded to see 0 all the time... and even then, they WILL see some KR here and there, I do not care what car it is.

Also, cruising along at 50MPH and then dumping a WOT on it is truly a worst case scenario for ANY car. Here we have an engine loafing along, pushing a small amount of fuel... BAM! Wot comes in and the engine struggles to suddenly respond to the engine's need for reduced spark and TONS more fuel instantly, all this while being at a VERY low RPM with the TC locked up and engine at maximum load... during that time, I often think that its a miracle the thing doesn't explode on me.

Which brings to mind an important question... GPGTP, are your tranny settings stock or modded?

[GPGTP]

excellent advice I will make the changes both mine and yours separately and will post scans sometime this weekend.

I am running autolite 104's as stated in my sig. I believe they are gapped at .050 or .055 per ZZP's recommendation.

My tranny settings are moddified. I have a copy of my bin posted above.

[JFDugal]

JerryH, bilemke,

Just a comment on your knock table sidebar discussion. I'm pretty sure the "Knock Fast Attack Rate" table in HPT is actually a modifier table and not the base knock table. The last time I checked the base knock table was AFR based and pretty much a flat 2 degree value. The Knock Fast Attack Rate table is a multiplier for the base knock and is RPM dependant. Most of the values in the default fast attack rate table will increase the base KR by 10% (8.0 units in HPT ~= 1.0 KR scaling factor).

[bilemke]

JerryH, bilemke,

Just a comment on your knock table sidebar discussion. I'm pretty sure the "Knock Fast Attack Rate" table in HPT is actually a modifier table and not the base knock table. The last time I checked the base knock table was AFR based and pretty much a flat 2 degree value. The Knock Fast Attack Rate table is a multiplier for the base knock and is RPM dependant. Most of the values in the default fast attack rate table will increase the base KR by 10% (8.0 units in HPT ~= 1.0 KR scaling factor).

Well, now we are all getting confused (well, maybe just me now, nahhhh)..

Knock Retard Decay (High Load and Low Load) are the rates at which the PCM will return to normal timing advance after KR is in effect.

Knock Retard Attack ("Base Retard" aka Knock Fast Attack Rate vs RPM) is the rate at which timing is pulled in relation to detected knock (this is via RPM, as the table name suggests).

@JFDugal, the AFR based/referenced table you are speaking of, I think you are thinking of Maximum Knock Retard (vs AFR). Not a very useful table to most.

[Perforator]

That's a good point bilemke. I think a lot of people are confused about the values, at least for the decay table. Either that or I'm confused. I higher value in the decay table will make the knock go away faster, right? What I'm seeing in bin files is a high number at high rpm's and a low number at low rpm's which is the opposite of what it should be. You want to be aggressive at the lower rpm's and more conservative at higher rpm's or am I going about this all wrong? I left my decay table stock over 4800 rpm's which is a value of 42. Care to comment?

[BlackGS]

That's a good point bilemke. I think a lot of people are confused about the values, at least for the decay table. Either that or I'm confused. I higher value in the decay table will make the knock go away faster, right? What I'm seeing in bin files is a high number at high rpm's and a low number at low rpm's which is the opposite of what it should be. You want to be aggressive at the lower rpm's and more conservative at higher rpm's or am I going about this all wrong? I left my decay table stock over 4800 rpm's which is a value of 42. Care to comment?

Just thinking quickly about how attack and recovery work, is it probable that the recovery rate is faster at higher rpms simply because the cylces are faster? If knock is detected, the attack rate is implemented and timing is removed. If the removed timing successfully kills the KR, then the recovery rate is started. If knock is reintroduced, the attack rate starts over. So, I'm thinking you want to attempt to recover faster at higher rpms, and your protection is the fact that timing will continue to be pulled if KR doesn't go away.

[Perforator]

I think the decay rate is how fast the knock decays. I've seen scans before were I get 1.4kr, then the next frame it's 1, the next .5, etc... It's how fast it decays from the first event. If you see 1.4, then 2, then 2.5 that's new knock, not one that's decaying and the decay rate is what determines how fast the last knock event goes away. While it's decaying I'm pretty sure it's still pulling timing. Now I guess you could set it really high, so when you detect knock it logs it, then it immediately goes back to 0. I prefer to be a little more conservative because I don't want my motor to go boom, lol, but I think that would be a good experiment to try.

[Perforator]

I just looked at one of my scans. During one wot run I got 2 degrees of knock and it decayed like this, 2,1.8,1.5,1.3,1.1,0.6,0.3 and 0. This was in the 4800-5300rpm range and it took 1.8 seconds. Like I said my decay table is set to 42 from 4400rpm and up. It pulled timing like this, 2,2,2,1.5,1.5,1,.5,.5. My attack rate is 8.791 4800rpm and up. I guess I could double my decay rate so it decays faster. What do you think?

[BlackGS]

I read somewhere that stock decay rate is restoring an average of 0.8 degrees of timing per second. Your decay numbers seem to support that theory. If you get 4 degrees of KR, it would take 5 seconds to get back to initial timing. That seems like a long time, so cutting that in half is probably not extremely risky. I still think that you are protected anyway because if new KR is introduced, the attack is initiated again and more timing is pulled.

[JFDugal]

the AFR based/referenced table you are speaking of, I think you are thinking of Maximum Knock Retard (vs AFR). Not a very useful table to most.

I was actually thinking of the Knock Retard Default Value table as its called by DHP. I was under the impression that those values were the number of degrees of timing to pull when a knock event is detected.

Knock Retard Decay (High Load and Low Load) are the rates at which the PCM will return to normal timing advance after KR is in effect.

Correct. Although the units in HPT are a bit wacky. From my observations, 45 units in HPT ~= 1 degree/s of knock recovery. And of course the Load Thresh value determines which recovery table gets used.

Knock Retard Attack ("Base Retard" aka Knock Fast Attack Rate vs RPM) is the rate at which timing is pulled in relation to detected knock (this is via RPM, as the table name suggests).

This is the table I mentioned earlier. It's not really a 'rate' table, but rather a multiplier of the amount of timing to be pulled. If you were to reduce the table values by 50% you'd see a 50% reduction in KR (I think RussK has mentioned this in the past & I've experienced similar results when 'playing around'). Again the HPT units are wonky. Approximately 8 units in HPT equate to a 1.0 knock multiplier.

BlackGS, increasing the values in the high load & low load tables should be fine. It's not going to reduce the amount of knock, but rather how fast it goes away. However, reducing the values of the Base Knock aka Knock Fast Attack Rate vs. RPM will (probably not the best way to control knock).

[Perforator]

If you were to reduce the table values by 50% you'd see a 50% reduction in KR

No, this is wrong. If you reduce the Knock Retard Attack table you are reducing the amount of timing pulled, not the amount of knock reported. As far as I know there is no way to reduce the amount of knock reported. You can control how fast it goes away and how much timing is pulled.

[JFDugal]

That's what I was referring to - timing pulled as the result of detonation (KR), not the amount of knock reported. I probalby should have worded that better to make it a bit clearer.