engine swap w/ truck norris 218/224 108 lsa

[blindsquirrel]

I seem to remember something about logs not keeping codes after saving...

Here's an example.

This is the first engine start after a reflash. There is no MAF (it lives in the bottom drawer of my toolbox which is the right and proper place for it). DTCs are MIL On First Error. The engine runs, and MAF Status changes to Failed ~1.3 seconds after cranking begins. MAF table is even zeroed out for all but the first cell. Details pane shows zero DTCs.

DTCs.hpl

The point is, don't be so quick to say it's not failed properly just because you don't see the DTCs. They're there, just for whatever reason they don't show up in the log until the 2nd engine start. However if you were to read codes, live, it would show them as Current. This does make it really f'ing hard to diagnose from a logfile if it's in SD like it should be when you don't know exactly how/when the log was recorded.

[dhoagland]

Here's an example.

This is the first engine start after a reflash. There is no MAF (it lives in the bottom drawer of my toolbox which is the right and proper place for it). DTCs are MIL On First Error. The engine runs, and MAF Status changes to Failed ~1.3 seconds after cranking begins. MAF table is even zeroed out for all but the first cell. Details pane shows zero DTCs.

DTCs.hpl

The point is, don't be so quick to say it's not failed properly just because you don't see the DTCs. They're there, just for whatever reason they don't show up in the log until the 2nd engine start. However if you were to read codes, live, it would show them as Current. This does make it really f'ing hard to diagnose from a logfile if it's in SD like it should be when you don't know exactly how/when the log was recorded.

I thought I read something about that
Thanks!

[eXo3901]

I repolled parameters and there is NO MAF STATUS PID anywhere to be had.

Ok, disregard then. Your platform must not have the channel. "Mass Airflow Sensor State"

Let us recall the statement:

MY QUESTION.
STARTING FROM SQUARE ONE ON OEM TUNE
WHAT ADJUSTMENTS COME FIRST.

not sure why eXo wanted me to first;

Add a few g/s to the idle area of the MAF

Just to help get it running.

and now i should;

Reduce the idle area MAF 12%

The log you posted had average STFT of -20%'ish for data above ECT of 180F. I did not see a DTC in the log indicating a failed MAF so the assumption was made that the MAF was being used. -12% was just an initial correction to get things close. If the MAF was failed correctly as you say, then make a -12% correction to the VE table instead of the MAF, simple.

im not going to make any adjustments to MAF yet because, the scan i posted, MY SCANNER SAID DTC P0103
MY CHARTS MAF VS FREQUENCY did register -100 for cells 3125 thru 4125hz.

I based my determination on the fact that there were not DTCs in the log and the dynamic airflow was set to 200rpm. Usually when failing the MAF, the dynamic enable is set to 8,000 rpm or something outside the operating range of the motor. Not sure were your -100 is coming from. No channel in the log you posted reported -100.

This does make it really f'ing hard to diagnose from a logfile if it's in SD like it should be when you don't know exactly how/when the log was recorded.

Yes. I thought the scanner picked up the DTCs regardless. He did say he checked them and they were there. My ignorant assumption, whoops.

[MPTA]

Awesome, thank you guys for the clarity. Very helpful.
Im glad i waited for your responses.
It gives me faith i wont be chasing my tail all day

[MPTA]

Truck is getting happier

[Fast4.7]

Here's an example.

This is the first engine start after a reflash. There is no MAF (it lives in the bottom drawer of my toolbox which is the right and proper place for it). DTCs are MIL On First Error. The engine runs, and MAF Status changes to Failed ~1.3 seconds after cranking begins. MAF table is even zeroed out for all but the first cell. Details pane shows zero DTCs.

DTCs.hpl

The point is, don't be so quick to say it's not failed properly just because you don't see the DTCs. They're there, just for whatever reason they don't show up in the log until the 2nd engine start. However if you were to read codes, live, it would show them as Current. This does make it really f'ing hard to diagnose from a logfile if it's in SD like it should be when you don't know exactly how/when the log was recorded.

Your opinion on where the MAF should be. My opinion is it should be in the intake duct between the throttle body and air cleaner. I have never had an engine run as well on speed density alone.

[Fast4.7]

Truck is getting happier

I am working on a 5.3L in a 70 Cutlass at the moment. Glanced at these and have some input I will type up later.

[MPTA]

thanks fast 4.7
im idling great, truck pushes a tiny bit on decel but i still have dfco off, not sure if that matters.
my maf is between the ears like a normal truck, k&n on one side, dbw on the other.
this 3rd log i added some idle airflow and drove a mile down the road and back. tryin to stay light footed.
i turned ltfts on for the log cuz im a sissy.
wideband logged between -1 and +2 with p0103 MAF DISABLED.
STFT + LTFT stayed below zero until i touched 75kpa
what am i doing ill just post the data...

[MPTA]

looking at that last scan i charted a couple anomolies where im not sure whats going on basically when the speedo drops from 1 down to zero the idle desired suddenly drops around 6 g/s
if im not mistaken the adaptive idle starts running when speedo hits zero. effectively turning off the cruise control feeling i had.

my next steps were going to be as follows: unless somebody has a better idea.

1. shut off all trims, cold start in the morning, log base running air
2. rescale idle cracker to something more suitable for a 750rpm idle
3. keep trims off and enable pe to something moderate, use wideband, hit main ve few times, check injector duty on stock injectors as pe comes in
4. switch over to maf only and hit that with the wideband
5. re enable trims find a good rpm for maf to come in at

if this sounds stupid tell me im stupid. im painfully learning to do small tweaks and verify the adjustments but any shortcuts are welcome.
some pointers on pe tuning with wideband would be beneficial. i'll be reading up tonight and starting again in the morning.

[Fast4.7]

looking at that last scan i charted a couple anomolies where im not sure whats going on. i topped out around 40%throttle where it wanted to start going lean

my next steps were going to be as follows:
1. shut off all trims, cold start log base running air
2. rescale idle cracker off of a 750rpm idle
3. keep trims off and enable pe to something moderate, use wideband, hit main ve few times, check injector duty on stock injectors as pe comes in
4. switch over to maf only and hit that with the wideband
5. re enable trims

if this sounds stupid tell me im stupid. im painfully learning to do small tweaks and verify the adjustments but any shortcuts are welcome.
some pointers on pe tuning with wideband would be beneficial. i'll be reading up tonight and starting again in the morning.

Personally I once did the VE and the MAF separately. Later figured out I was wasting time doing the MAF only. Now I get the VEs good, then enable the MAF and tweak the MAF table until the fueling is where I like it. With both being blended together the end fueling is always going to change anyway. I just fix the VE now and if it still has a stock MAF and air intake it usually only needs slight tweaks to the MAF table. I also typically run with the dynamic air high around 2,400 rpm and my WOT is purely off the MAP.

[dhoagland]

Personally I once did the VE and the MAF separately. Later figured out I was wasting time doing the MAF only. Now I get the VEs good, then enable the MAF and tweak the MAF table until the fueling is where I like it. With both being blended together the end fueling is always going to change anyway. I just fix the VE now and if it still has a stock MAF and air intake it usually only needs slight tweaks to the MAF table. I also typically run with the dynamic air high around 2,400 rpm and my WOT is purely off the MAP.

2400 + MAF or MAP?
99% sure you mean MAF

In you method do you complete the VE, Including PE and WOT, then dial the MAF in a blended condition.
Which I believe is fine, just want to make sure I understand what you are saying

[Fast4.7]

[/B][/B]

2400 + MAF or MAP?
99% sure you mean MAF

In you method do you complete the VE, Including PE and WOT, then dial the MAF in a blended condition.
Which I believe is fine, just want to make sure I understand what you are saying

You are correct, long day. Totally off the MAF at WOT. I still complete the VE and get it hitting the targets everywhere including PE, WOT and Lean Cruise.

[dhoagland]

You are correct, long day. Totally off the MAF at WOT. I still complete the VE and get it hitting the targets everywhere including PE, WOT and Lean Cruise.

Thanks

BTW... I make the MAF/MAP error all the time.... Before I responded I reread in 5 times, LOL!

[MPTA]

i dont know if lean cruise is viable on my rig, its a 1986 chev k20 4x4 on 33's with a pig 4l80

[Fast4.7]

i dont know if lean cruise is viable on my rig, its a 1986 chev k20 4x4 on 33's with a pig 4l80

Well probably about as viable as it is on mine. 1997 G1500 conversion van on a 3500 suspension and running gear with an aluminum head ~500 hp 11:1 383, 4L85E and 3.73s in the 10.5" FF 14-bolt on 31.5" tall tires. Mine lives in lean cruise at steady speeds, point it uphill or try to accelerate and it is out of lean cruise, but coasting along at a steady speed or downhill its at 16.5-17:1 and the timing is maxed out at the 44 degree limit of the Vortec distributor. I also ran lean cruise on the old 350 with a mild cam in it. Picked up 2-3 mpg at a steady 75-85 mph. She is a heavy pig like driving your living room down the highway but I have still seen 18-19 mpg from the 383 on an all highway run. I was in Kentucky several years ago with the old 350 in it. It would richen up a bit to pull those long 5-7% grades in overdrive and go back lean on the flats. The 350 was dragging its 6,000+ lbs uphill at about 2,000 rpm at 65 mph without really struggling. The lean cruise target air fuel ratio is set to work similarly to a carbs metering rods on my van. It varies between 17:1 and 13:1 depending on rpm and load while still in "lean cruise". Power delivery is much more seamless than stoich followed by PE. The AF subtractor in lean cruise can also be an adder. Lean at light load and richer than stoich when its under heavy load. Then at slower speeds around town it can run at stoich with O2 feedback to run as clean as possible. If you floor it, it instantly goes into PE. I also have catalyst overheat and piston protect modes still on with the 383. If its working hard like pulling my travel trailer the PCM can add fuel to help keep it cooler.

https://youtu.be/UgwvwHzk74c

[dhoagland]

looking at that last scan i charted a couple anomolies where im not sure whats going on basically when the speedo drops from 1 down to zero the idle desired suddenly drops around 6 g/s
if im not mistaken the adaptive idle starts running when speedo hits zero. effectively turning off the cruise control feeling i had.

my next steps were going to be as follows: unless somebody has a better idea.

1. shut off all trims, cold start in the morning, log base running air
2. rescale idle cracker to something more suitable for a 750rpm idle
3. keep trims off and enable pe to something moderate, use wideband, hit main ve few times, check injector duty on stock injectors as pe comes in
4. switch over to maf only and hit that with the wideband
5. re enable trims find a good rpm for maf to come in at

if this sounds stupid tell me im stupid. im painfully learning to do small tweaks and verify the adjustments but any shortcuts are welcome.
some pointers on pe tuning with wideband would be beneficial. i'll be reading up tonight and starting again in the morning.

There are many different ways to get to the designation...
Most say fine idle tuning is only done once you are happy with your airflow tables. Because if you change your MAF or VE you're probably going to revisit idle air.
So before I messed with fine idle tuning I would incorporate the MAF if you are going to run blended mode and nail the fuel trims down.

Then I would disable all of the idle spark corrections and dial idle air in at operating temperature. Get it idling damn good with no spark assistance.
Go from there...

This is a long read
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-(w-pictures)

[Fast4.7]

There are many different ways to get to the designation...
Most say fine idle tuning is only done once you are happy with your airflow tables. Because if you change your MAF or VE you're probably going to revisit idle air.
So before I messed with fine idle tuning I would incorporate the MAF if you are going to run blended mode and nail the fuel trims down. I swapped a mechanical fan blade on mine and had to change base idle airflow. I also just had to change the a/c torque table after swapping a Sanden 4261 HT6 replacement SD7H15 in place of an older Valeo HT6 replacement compressor. The Sanden takes less torque to turn and my STITs and thus LTITs were spiking with the AC on.

Then I would disable all of the idle spark corrections and dial idle air in at operating temperature. Get it idling damn good with no spark assistance.
Go from there...

This is a long read
https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...e-(w-pictures)

Yep

As for his 6 gms/sec drop, he needs to log Idle Kicker and Idle Cracker airflow though. Sounds like one of the two is adding a good bit of airflow and causing his cruise control feeling. I do agree that fine tuning needs to be done after both VE and MAF tables are tuned to perfection. The STIT and LTITs will work as designed as long as the Base table is fairly close.

[MPTA]

i have been logging cracker follower.
i'll focus on ve first since it isnt stalling

[MPTA]

i think my idle rpm for in gear should be lower.
shouldn't it?
i bumped both idle tables up 200rpm as advised for a starting point back in the beginning of this process but no mention here nor there of "p/n" vs "in gear."
well with the 200 added my in-gear AND p/n rpm targets sit at 750.
i get it, i get it, its a generic starting point.
i think this is f'ing me now because i dont have a loose converter.
the idle air desired g/s for in gear is a huge transition from p/n desired air because i have an 4l80/tight verter hangin on the flexplate, that + higher base rpm = a tiny bit of load on the motor = hey i want more air to do this shit. side effect = weird transition gap between the two tables.

Everybody says make sure you blend things so its a smooth transition.

i have a column shifter. P R N D 3 2 L
now imagine you are my pcm.
I start the truck, crack a beer, throw it in drive and take my foot off the brake and your like hell no! heres some spark retard, i have to think about what just hit me.

i don't know maybe im a fricken idiot but the only way i can think of blending that together is to lower the in gear rpm some to get that airflow table closer to the park airflow table, it would keep my map from bouncing and sequentially not throwing a wave of side effects into the equation.

hopefully someone has some useful insight.

[Fast4.7]

i think my idle rpm for in gear should be lower.
shouldn't it?
i bumped both idle tables up 200rpm as advised for a starting point back in the beginning of this process but no mention here nor there of "p/n" vs "in gear."
well with the 200 added my in-gear AND p/n rpm targets sit at 750.
i get it, i get it, its a generic starting point.
i think this is f'ing me now because i dont have a loose converter.
the idle air desired g/s for in gear is a huge transition from p/n desired air because i have an 4l80/tight verter hangin on the flexplate, that + higher base rpm = a tiny bit of load on the motor = hey i want more air to do this shit. side effect = weird transition gap between the two tables.

Everybody says make sure you blend things so its a smooth transition.

i have a column shifter. P R N D 3 2 L
now imagine you are my pcm.
I start the truck, crack a beer, throw it in drive and take my foot off the brake and your like hell no! heres some spark retard, i have to think about what just hit me.

i don't know maybe im a fricken idiot but the only way i can think of blending that together is to lower the in gear rpm some to get that airflow table closer to the park airflow table, it would keep my map from bouncing and sequentially not throwing a wave of side effects into the equation.

hopefully someone has some useful insight.

My Park idle is 100 rpm higher than my Drive idle. My A/C on idle is 100 rpm higher as well. I have a 2,800 stall though. Park is 750, Drive 650, Park w a/c is 850 and Drive with ac is 750. Really doesnt matter it could all be the same, just set the base idle airflow as needed. I just like mine to sound a little choppier in gear at a redlight and want it idling smoothly when I throw it in Park at a drive through or the like. Idling higher than 700ish with a stock 4L80E converter will require more force on the brake pedal to get it to stop. I add 100 rpm with ac so that the compressor and fan will get a little more rpm and thus better cooling. With the converter I can idle 850 rpm, let my foot off the brake on flat road and barely creep forward, so throwing it in drive at 850 rpm is still smooth. I played with the idle speed a bit and on a 102F day my ac blows about 46F at the left vent at 650. In Park at 850 it will drop to 41F. At 1,350 rpm with the IAC wide open it will drop to 33F. Kinda makes me wish I had a high idle switch that activated with a remote start for initial cooldown on a really hot day.