E67, Northstar OS, Volvo DOHC V8, Solstice.

[agent008]

Hello. I'm from Brazil and am considering HP Tuners for a project I have.

I have a 2006 2.4 manual Pontiac Solstice. I wanted to convert this car to V6 and bought a LY7 vehicle to part out (2009 Saturn Vue, accident car) but the car is in such good shape that at my wife's request I decided to fix it.

So, new plan, I have a spare Volvo B8444S at an engine machine shop that I have requested them to finish up and assemble. This engine is conceptually similar to a Northstar (8-cylinder, DOHC 32 valve, cross-plane) and the firing orders are the same between both (Northstar has a different cylinder numbering than the Volvo but the actual physical order is the same). The Volvo uses a 58-2 trigger wheel and my research indicates the later Northstars (controlled by E67) do so too.

So, maybe it seems like a pipe dream or a ridiculous endeavour but before believeing it is impossible, I decided to research and ask questions. Maybe it isnt impossible?

A few things I am usually asked:
*Why not use a GM LS engine? here in Brazil they are crazy expensive ($20000.00 for an LS3/L99 off a 5th gen Camaro). THe only LS vehicle officialoly imported by GM into Brazil was the Camaro and it is a niche vehicle. While european import engines such as the Volvo's can be bought for a quarter of that price due to the higher volume sales of these cars.
*Why not turbo the LE5 2.4? My goal for the Solstice is a naturally aspirated large displacement engine and has to have the nicer sound of 6 or 8 cylinders. Basically a poor man's Corvette, I know in the US it'd be cehaper to buy an actual Corvette but that isn't true here.
*Why not a Ford/Toyota/Audi/whatever V8? Most of all - I already own the Volvo V8. Also with it being a 60° engine makes me believe it will be easier to fit into the Solstice because it's not as wide as a traditional 90º V8.

My 2006 model year Solstice runs a E67 ECM (later ones changed to E37 I think) so it has most of the wiring in place. I would keep the stock ECM and buy a used one off a 2008 SRX (E67, longitudinal 4.6 Northstar) to use as a starting point.

My idea is to have the engine running on the bench with the Northstar E67. Only after getting it to run half decently on the bench, would I proceed with the swap into the car.

There are many things I would have to learn. How to tune bing only one of them. I don't mind doing tons of google research and know it will be only one of the resources I'll have to tap into. A lot of questions need answering:

1) Is it possible to run a Northstar E67 on the bench, without VATS and BCM? Or would I have to start with BCM from the same car?
2) How different are the signals / GMLAN etc. expected by the Solstice E67 OS and the SRX E67 OS? Would I be able to create a hybrid between both?

That's all for now. If anyone does think I might have the slightest chance, or would like to weigh in, I'd really appreciate. Thanks

[agent008]

Bumping this.

[agent008]

Whoa. No comments whatsoever. Is this idea that crazy?

[cadillactech]

All IPC is CAN based. Do you have a solution for that?

[cadillactech]

Also, I know both engines are 58-2 crank sensors BUT are the trigger cylinders the same? Are the sensors the same nomenclature? I believe the Northstar is a 5V hall effect sensor.
The LH2 Northstar has 4 cam sensors, not sure what the ECM will do if it doesn't have all of those.

Might be easier and less expensive if you value your time to buy a standalone engine management system an aftermarket gauge set up and try that way.

[agent008]

First of all thanks for answering.

All IPC is CAN based. Do you have a solution for that?

The Solstice IPC is run by the BCM. As long as the E67 can talk to the BCM the cluster would work OK.

Also, I know both engines are 58-2 crank sensors BUT are the trigger cylinders the same? Are the sensors the same nomenclature? I believe the Northstar is a 5V hall effect sensor.
The LH2 Northstar has 4 cam sensors, not sure what the ECM will do if it doesn't have all of those.

I was thinking of using the Northstar trigger wheel and sensor. It might require some machining to clock it correctly. I'm not sure what sensor type the B8444S uses but it might be a hall effect one too.
The B8444S also has cam sensors but very unlikely the trigger wheels would be the same so if the LH2 OS can run without them, it's better.

Might be easier and less expensive if you value your time to buy a standalone engine management system an aftermarket gauge set up and try that way.

In this case any suggestions on how I would go about integrating it into the car's existing network? Ie. IPC, transponder/start-enable, air conditioning etc.

[kgschlosser]

OK so first we need to correct a problem with how you are deciding on what engine to use. you need to use a 90? engine not a 60?. you will not be able to get the 60? to fit without having to cut up the hood. The issue with the Kappa's is not so much the engine width as it is with the engine height. A 60? engine is going to be taller then a 90? and with a 90? just about touching the hood when it is installed into the car tell us that there is no way you will be able to get a 60? to fit without having to modify the hood.

[kgschlosser]

Another reason why the LS engines were used is because the NA ECM from the Solstice is able to run the engine and there for makes it compatible with the BCM. This takes care of the large issue with the ECM being able to communicate with the BCM properly. And this needs to be done in order to have the SRS systems functional, the IPC functional and also be able to start the car.

[agent008]

I have no reason to think that the B8444S is much taller than the base Solstice's original LE5 engine.
Anyway, what I'll do is have the shop close up and assemble the engine, then take measurements.

If it's too big or tall I'll use the engine somewhere else.

[blindsquirrel]

What is the cylinder-to-cylinder phasing of this 60-degree bank angle Volvo/Yamaha thing, anyway? If it's not evenly spaced at 90* per event you're S.O.L.

[cadillactech]

First of all thanks for answering.

The Solstice IPC is run by the BCM. As long as the E67 can talk to the BCM the cluster would work OK.



I was thinking of using the Northstar trigger wheel and sensor. It might require some machining to clock it correctly. I'm not sure what sensor type the B8444S uses but it might be a hall effect one too.
The B8444S also has cam sensors but very unlikely the trigger wheels would be the same so if the LH2 OS can run without them, it's better.


In this case any suggestions on how I would go about integrating it into the car's existing network? Ie. IPC, transponder/start-enable, air conditioning etc.

How will you get the BCM to talk to the E67 with a different OS?

The Northstar crank reluctor wheel is integral to the crank and in the center. There is no way to remove it because it is part of the crank.

I would get an aftermarket ECU that can support this Volvo engine, build a harness and run it standalone. If you cant run a TACH/SPEEDO/whatever gauge from this set up, buy and build and aftermarket gauge setup and drive them that way. It will be hacked up I think but you could spend some time making it nice.

Might be cheaper to do the LS swap. I mean, how much is your time worth? $100 bucks an hour? $50? $25? Even at minimum wage you would be ahead with a LS swap but I understand if you like to tinker and half the fun of it is the build and figuring it out.

[blindsquirrel]

What is the firing interval for the Volvo engine?

If it is not 90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90 it will not work with an ECM intended for a LS V8. Firing order can be changed, and injector timing can be changed, but separation between firing events in the sequence cannot be changed. And I do not know of any way to get 90-90-90... out of a 60 degree bank angle with a non-split-pin cross-plane crankshaft.

[agent008]

What is the firing interval for the Volvo engine?

If it is not 90-90-90-90-90-90-90-90 it will not work with an ECM intended for a LS V8. Firing order can be changed, and injector timing can be changed, but separation between firing events in the sequence cannot be changed. And I do not know of any way to get 90-90-90... out of a 60 degree bank angle with a non-split-pin cross-plane crankshaft.

The Volvo B8444S is precisely that. A 60-degree even-firing V8 that sports a cross-plane, split-pin crankshaft. That means it's firing intervals were adjusted by the engineers (via crankshaft pin splitting) to be even, meaning 720degrees/8 = 90degrees between each power stroke. My intention is not to use a LS ECM/OS but a Northstar one.

How will you get the BCM to talk to the E67 with a different OS?

The Northstar crank reluctor wheel is integral to the crank and in the center. There is no way to remove it because it is part of the crank.

I would get an aftermarket ECU that can support this Volvo engine, build a harness and run it standalone. If you cant run a TACH/SPEEDO/whatever gauge from this set up, buy and build and aftermarket gauge setup and drive them that way. It will be hacked up I think but you could spend some time making it nice.

Might be cheaper to do the LS swap. I mean, how much is your time worth? $100 bucks an hour? $50? $25? Even at minimum wage you would be ahead with a LS swap but I understand if you like to tinker and half the fun of it is the build and figuring it out.

Yeah it would be dependant on the Northstar OS being able to communicate with the Solstice ECM. It's a long shot. I know. Would be easier if there was some kind of "hptuners-like" tool for programming BCMs.
As far as the reluctor wheel, I was under the impression that the latest Northstars had them on the end of the crankshaft? Ie. they were changed to the end of the crankshaft when migrated from 24x to 58x... (gen4 to gen5)?

Thanks for chiming in. There's a lot I have to learn about this yet.
Cheers

[blindsquirrel]

Ah, but that's not a cross plane crank. Cross... +... four throws. Offset pins with 8 throws = not cross-shaped, not cross plane. It's just confusion about terminology, I saw you call it cross plane, saw the weird bank angle, and took it on face value that it was some goofy odd-fire thing.

A LS E67 (or a 2.4L Malibu E67, for that matter) with a Northstar OS written to it turns into a Northstar E67.

[agent008]

Ah, but that's not a cross plane crank. Cross... +... four throws. Offset pins with 8 throws = not cross-shaped, not cross plane. It's just confusion about terminology, I saw you call it cross plane, saw the weird bank angle, and took it on face value that it was some goofy odd-fire thing.

A LS E67 (or a 2.4L Malibu E67, for that matter) with a Northstar OS written to it turns into a Northstar E67.

You're right but the firing order becomes the same as a 90 degree cross plane V8 such as the Northstar.

About the OS, that was what my googling led me to believe. The question is -- will the Northstar (ex. Cadillac SRX) OS written to the E67 talk correctly to the Solstice BCM?
I keep thinking the E67 OS for this case should be kind of a hybrid - Northstar engine setup, tables, etc, with the code responsible for communications, the CAN network, signals etc. coming from a stock Solstice 2.4 OS.

[blindsquirrel]

Yes but you can't do a segment swap between them unless the base OS numbers match, so there'd be no way to create the hybrid OS that would make it work. I haven't looked but I highly doubt the OSes would match between two platforms and engines so far apart from each other. Stranger things have happened, though.

If it was me, I would forget all this nonsense, grab an aftermarket ECU, and piggyback it into the stock Solstice ECM. Let the stock ECM run the car and all it's finnicky OEM systems, and let the aftermarket ECU run the weird goofball engine.

[agent008]

If it was me, I would forget all this nonsense, grab an aftermarket ECU, and piggyback it into the stock Solstice ECM. Let the stock ECM run the car and all it's finnicky OEM systems, and let the aftermarket ECU run the weird goofball engine.

That would be a (good) second option for me. Would try to make it work with the E67 only, and then plan B would be to do as you say. Doing it this way also has its own challenges but seems easier of course -- ie how to get the required signals to be present on the CAN bus in order to make the Instrument Panel be happy and work as intended. Check engine, temperature, and other warning lights to light up when required. etc. etc. etc.

[cadillactech]

The Volvo B8444S is precisely that. A 60-degree even-firing V8 that sports a cross-plane, split-pin crankshaft. That means it's firing intervals were adjusted by the engineers (via crankshaft pin splitting) to be even, meaning 720degrees/8 = 90degrees between each power stroke. My intention is not to use a LS ECM/OS but a Northstar one.



Yeah it would be dependant on the Northstar OS being able to communicate with the Solstice ECM. It's a long shot. I know. Would be easier if there was some kind of "hptuners-like" tool for programming BCMs.
As far as the reluctor wheel, I was under the impression that the latest Northstars had them on the end of the crankshaft? Ie. they were changed to the end of the crankshaft when migrated from 24x to 58x... (gen4 to gen5)?

Thanks for chiming in. There's a lot I have to learn about this yet.
Cheers

North stars have always had the crank sensors in the middle of the block. Whether they had the 2 crank sensor system when they first came out until they killed it, the crank sensor is in the center of the crank. Always have been machined into the crankshaft, they just changed to a 58X style with hall sensor in 2004 LH2 and 2006 in the FWD engines.

[agent008]

North stars have always had the crank sensors in the middle of the block. Whether they had the 2 crank sensor system when they first came out until they killed it, the crank sensor is in the center of the crank. Always have been machined into the crankshaft, they just changed to a 58X style with hall sensor in 2004 LH2 and 2006 in the FWD engines.

I see. This adds another complicating factor. I'd have to machine a new reluctor wheel and mount it to where the Volvo has its original one. Or, if the patterns are similar enough, just re-clock the Volvo wheel to match what the ECM expects.

[agent008]

Hi there again. I'm revisiting this topic. What if... I ran the B8444S with a LS3 OS loaded to the E67?
I had a quick look on the web and found the firing order seems to be the same. I could use a LS3 reluctor ring. What worries me is just the displacement difference is big (4.4 to 6.2)...