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Thread: SD tuning for E38/E67 ECM's

  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@HPTuners
    lol, a perfect example of tuning the fuel using the PE table...
    Is that bad?

    Injectors are stock so no IFR changes.
    We obviously can't do VE yet.
    Stock MAF.

    I turned off COT and adjusted the PE table, picked up 11rwhp with 13.0 afr and 3* more timing. What did I do wrong?

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by brianw21
    Is that bad?

    Injectors are stock so no IFR changes.
    We obviously can't do VE yet.
    Stock MAF.

    I turned off COT and adjusted the PE table, picked up 11rwhp with 13.0 afr and 3* more timing. What did I do wrong?
    i was inferring that even GM tune in different ways on occasion. I guess it depends on who had time to go to training this week (if it exists) and how much time is available to calibrate an engine for a given application. BTW, you can tune using speed density, it's just not easy anymore... not easy for you and not easy for the OEM guys either.

    The thing with a lot of this is that you can get the same result in different ways, people can argue all they want about what is "right" but in most cases it really doesn't matter.

    Check out an early Holden LS1 IFR table to see an example of something that probably isn't right but was calibrated that way for 1000's of vehicles. nobody ever complained.

    Chris...
    I count sheep in hex...

  3. #43
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    my favorite example is this 06 TBSS stock pe table...looks more like the rocky mountains then anything
    It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be done in two weeks...

    A wise man once said "google it"

  4. #44
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    In my line of work, I see this all the time. A lot of people like taking the short cut, which makes their "life" easier (they get the results done), but when someone needs to modify those settings for a different customer and go through logical methods of change. All hell breaks loose because someone was too lazy to properly setup the file/model, which results in wierd or unwanted outcomes. I like making changes based on what each variable is suppose to control, and not modify it to work for me. So if the PE table is for only modifying the target AFR when floored, then that is how I will modify it. I hate getting tunes that are solely tuned by IFR, or by PE ... while the VE table and MAF tables are stock. Not my way of tuning, no matter what authority says it is OK (nothing against you Chris ). That is why I start from scratch every time now. I guess being a mechanical designer, I expect things to work as they were designed and the function the way they were intended for. And that is how I tune, no matter if it takes longer then the next guy (who tunes with IFR, for example).
    Last edited by 12secSS; 12-08-2006 at 12:51 PM.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@HPTuners



    eg. Ax² + By² + Cxy + Dx + Ey + Fxy + G = VE

    I really think this is going to be a pain in the ass at first but it doesn't look like it should be too hard to come up with some iteration technique to solve a matrix like what we see here. If the matrix happens to be diagnally dominate I know a technique that takes rather routine and simple math and does not have a limit on the size of the matrix. For instance I was using it to solve 14x14 matrices over last summer.

  6. #46
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    BTW.

    When can we expect a Dynamic airflow mapping table for E67 07 Trailblazer SS's? That would be a personal vehicle for me so i'd like to get a head start on VE tuning.



    Also, If i were you guys I would expect the same to follow with ignition timing. I say that because it is quite easy to write a formula for ignition timing with flame travel speed, piston speed, AFR, cylinder charge temp, and pressure.

  7. #47
    what is a dynamic airflow mapping table?
    I count sheep in hex...

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chris@HPTuners
    what is a dynamic airflow mapping table?

    This, it is not in the 07 TBSS software yet.


  9. #49
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    mind posting the stock file alvin? I've only seen 06 TBSS files no 07's as of yet.

    Thanks
    Bill
    It doesn't have to be perfect, it just needs to be done in two weeks...

    A wise man once said "google it"

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Alvin
    This, it is not in the 07 TBSS software yet.

    the table doesn't exist, it is hardcoded.
    I count sheep in hex...

  11. #51
    Chris,

    I think the following is the best solution (IMHO):

    1. Have HP tuners render the VE table based on the equations.
    2. Let the user make the changes to the VE table.
    3. re-evaluate the table and solve for the new equations.

    I understand #3 is the issue, but it can easily be accomplished. Matlab makes Matlab Compiler and Matlab Builder for .Net these can be used in .Net to bring the power of Matlab to any of your clients.

    You only have to pay for the Matlab development tools, as there is no charge to distribute the compiled objects with clients.

    Another product is "Extreme Optimization Numerical Libraries" for .Net 2.0. But I am unsure if it has all the functions that would be required. It does solve polynomials, curve fitting, and matracies.

    Anyhow...

  12. #52
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    SD tuning - need parameters and histograms

    I have a 2007 Avalanche and would like to take a stab at SD tuning mentioned in this thread.

    I am a beginner with HPTuners but am comfortable with manipulating data in Excel.

    Could someone post a histogram or two, along with a list of required parameters, that will help me log the correct data to plug into Excel?

    Shane

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by shanep4db
    I have a 2007 Avalanche and would like to take a stab at SD tuning mentioned in this thread.

    I am a beginner with HPTuners but am comfortable with manipulating data in Excel.

    Could someone post a histogram or two, along with a list of required parameters, that will help me log the correct data to plug into Excel?

    Shane
    I've attached my config file I used for SD tuning using AFR % error. It contains a histogram of % error vs MAP & RPM. To get it to work you have to select PID's for RPM, MAP, Commanded AFR, and AFR from your wideband.
    VE Calais V 6.0L L98 V8 6L80E

  14. #54
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    Thanks for the cfg.

    I do not have a wideband O2 sensor or the Pro version of MPVI yet.

    I guess I will have to save my money to buy more toys before I can SD tune; unless someone can explain how to do it without the wideband. Is that even possible?

  15. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12secSS
    In my line of work, I see this all the time. A lot of people like taking the short cut, which makes their "life" easier (they get the results done), but when someone needs to modify those settings for a different customer and go through logical methods of change. All hell breaks loose because someone was too lazy to properly setup the file/model, which results in wierd or unwanted outcomes. I like making changes based on what each variable is suppose to control, and not modify it to work for me. So if the PE table is for only modifying the target AFR when floored, then that is how I will modify it. I hate getting tunes that are solely tuned by IFR, or by PE ... while the VE table and MAF tables are stock. Not my way of tuning, no matter what authority says it is OK (nothing against you Chris ). That is why I start from scratch every time now. I guess being a mechanical designer, I expect things to work as they were designed and the function the way they were intended for. And that is how I tune, no matter if it takes longer then the next guy (who tunes with IFR, for example).
    Just came across, this. George, I'm with you 100%! Sure, there are instances when one has to rely on the PE table, such as running out of MAF headroom, etc., but unless such a situation arises, I refuse to hop on the "PE Raper" bandwagon. PE raping dominated the Ford tuning world for many many years. It really wasn't until SCT came along, or at least until Jerry Wroblewski came over into the aftermarket world, before the entire thought processes of the majority of the so called tuners in the industry were changed. When you rape the PE table, you end up raping the spark table. Calculated aircharge can never be correct unless the MAF transfer is properly dialed in.

    Once more GM only tuners start hanging around Ford and Ford/GM tuners, I think the GM only tuners will start to eventually come around. (that was a joke - kindof, hehe!)
    Last edited by RWTD; 06-27-2007 at 10:08 PM.

  16. #56
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    Will there be a way to tune the VE table on a LS2 ever? Everyone says you can, but when you do it the results are all over the place.
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  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by PurplePiss
    Will there be a way to tune the VE table on a LS2 ever? Everyone says you can, but when you do it the results are all over the place.
    Yes there will be... Both BIAS and VE will require tuning at the same time.
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    445 RWHP/413 RWTQ

  18. #58
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    PurplePiss, I have been able to tune GTOs (2004, 2005, 2006) in SD mode in two or three sessions on the street using a wideband and the AFR Error % histograms. The VE table is the same as an LS1, just layed out differently (X vs Y). Did you disable closed loop entirely and set the Cmmd AFR to stoich? The only VE tables we can not modify like LS1s are the 2007 and newer.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by 12secSS
    PurplePiss, I have been able to tune GTOs (2004, 2005, 2006) in SD mode in two or three sessions on the street using a wideband and the AFR Error % histograms. The VE table is the same as an LS1, just layed out differently (X vs Y). Did you disable closed loop entirely and set the Cmmd AFR to stoich? The only VE tables we can not modify like LS1s are the 2007 and newer.
    Well the problem is that if IAT temps have a drastic change, then the AFR will follow.

    The hotter the IAT's the leaner the mixture
    The cooler the IAT's the richer the mixture

    Right now I have my GTO set up to have a perfect 14.7 AFR at 88 - 95* IATs. Once outside that window you're looking at way lean or rich.

    So yea... you can tune an LS2 GTO fine for that day, but once the variables change, so will the tune.
    2005 Pontiac GTO LS2

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    445 RWHP/413 RWTQ

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclone Chris
    Well the problem is that if IAT temps have a drastic change, then the AFR will follow.

    The hotter the IAT's the leaner the mixture
    The cooler the IAT's the richer the mixture

    Right now I have my GTO set up to have a perfect 14.7 AFR at 88 - 95* IATs. Once outside that window you're looking at way lean or rich.

    So yea... you can tune an LS2 GTO fine for that day, but once the variables change, so will the tune.
    EXACTLY. I tuned my car for months and about pulled my hair out. You can get it close and then all of a sudden it goes lean or pig rich depending on the temp. I'm not sure how GM did their initial tune. Maybe they tuned it for 75-80 weather, then counted on +5 to -5 trims. I do think my bias table is the problem though since I did the Omega IAT mod and its reading the temp 5" before the throttle blades.

    So is HPT coming out with something or is RHS working on something?
    www.outlawpontiacdragseries.com
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