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Thread: 06 Cobalt SS Supercharged stock VS stage 2

  1. #1
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    06 Cobalt SS Supercharged stock VS stage 2

    A little history, bone stock dynoed on Superflow chassis Dyno at 211 hp consistant 3 pulls, wrote a tune made 219 consistant over 3 pulls.

    Installed GM Stage 2 kit without the factory reflash and belt was slipping being brand new and not broken in made 225.

    This is where I got suprised, I had scaled the injector flow rate by the percent of difference in the injector size but it was really lean on bottom and really rich on top, So I had to change injector flow rate to 40 lb injectors instead of 42 and cut down PE.

    In this file there is no injector constant to mess with.

    Any Ideas?

    I Now have the factory Stage 2 Reflash installed and I read it and did a compare to the original tune to see what GM changed.
    I will dyno it as soon as possible and follow up on this thread.

    I feel that it is lean until 4800 where the PE delay point is now in the stage 2 and the stock file was 3650 I beleive, I may lower this back and see what happens.

    Also wondering if anyone has dynoed a stage 2 yet, what was the HP, TQ, and A/F.

    Interestingly they raised the desired boost to 200 across the board, and the desired torque to 738 across the board, it was around 460 at peak, I imagine this is Axle torque.

  2. #2
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    There are no constants because our engines are much more sophisticated from N/A engines. GM decided to have our cars monitor many sensor inputs to change fueling, spark, etc. I'm still really new to tuning, but I tuned my 2.7 inch pulley and 42lbers and the tune seems to be ok, I don't have a wideband so A/F is unknown, but my buddy we just tuned with Intenses reflash, same setup but has 60lbers and we're seeing spikes of over 15* KR. Because of this I'm going to go back to stock spark tables since I noticed they only added flat spots which I believe is where we're hitting KR. Also we'll get the autolites spark plugs in and that may reduce KR if it's being cause by the heat range. Good luck!
    06 Cobalt SS SC
    2.7 pulley
    42.5lb Injectors
    HPT VCM Suite tuned
    Custom SRI
    Tuned
    13.701 @ 103 Mph
    Best 1/4 mile Stock
    14.295 @ 102 Mph

    02 TURBO Cavy 2200
    Finished
    Times coming soon

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING
    A little history, bone stock dynoed on Superflow chassis Dyno at 211 hp consistant 3 pulls, wrote a tune made 219 consistant over 3 pulls.

    Installed GM Stage 2 kit without the factory reflash and belt was slipping being brand new and not broken in made 225.

    This is where I got suprised, I had scaled the injector flow rate by the percent of difference in the injector size but it was really lean on bottom and really rich on top, So I had to change injector flow rate to 40 lb injectors instead of 42 and cut down PE.

    In this file there is no injector constant to mess with.

    Any Ideas?

    I Now have the factory Stage 2 Reflash installed and I read it and did a compare to the original tune to see what GM changed.
    I will dyno it as soon as possible and follow up on this thread.

    I feel that it is lean until 4800 where the PE delay point is now in the stage 2 and the stock file was 3650 I beleive, I may lower this back and see what happens.

    Also wondering if anyone has dynoed a stage 2 yet, what was the HP, TQ, and A/F.

    Interestingly they raised the desired boost to 200 across the board, and the desired torque to 738 across the board, it was around 460 at peak, I imagine this is Axle torque.
    I ran a 260whp with the stage tune, a 2.8", and the K&N. My A/F's were a lil lean from tip in to about 4k+, as you've said, and then would get to around 11.x at 6500, and then injectors go static and runs up to about 13.0. This is a post cat O2 sniffer.



    The dyno is STD correction, but SAE resulted in 252 whp...
    2005 Stage 2 Saturn Ion Redline
    260whp, 225wtq 14.0 @ 13.7 (2nd time dragging)

    RedlineForums.com Moderator and Eager Tuning Noob.
    Chicago, IL

  4. #4
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    holy flat torque curve batman

  5. #5
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    The lean A/F below 4000 is due to the PE delay, I would suggest you lower it to around 2500 rpm.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING
    The lean A/F below 4000 is due to the PE delay, I would suggest you lower it to around 2500 rpm.
    Yes sir! I did just that as soon as I got my wideband, feels alot stronger alot sooner. That dyno is a bit old now, all pre-tuning and such. Dropped it down the the low 3000's, 3300 I think, maybe lower. It was running a lil richer than that dyno indicated as well, .3 or so on my LC-1 anyway. Running a pretty flat 12.2:1, now but it starts to lean out up top, need a set of the 60# injectors now.
    Last edited by Sp00ner; 08-12-2006 at 01:36 AM.
    2005 Stage 2 Saturn Ion Redline
    260whp, 225wtq 14.0 @ 13.7 (2nd time dragging)

    RedlineForums.com Moderator and Eager Tuning Noob.
    Chicago, IL

  7. #7
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    I don't see how you would need 60# injectors at that power level, the math says otherwise.

    Data log your injector duty cycle and see what you have at 7000 RPM.

    Oh yeah, If forgot to mention you should raise your rev limiter to 7400 they love it.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING
    I don't see how you would need 60# injectors at that power level, the math says otherwise.

    Data log your injector duty cycle and see what you have at 7000 RPM.

    Oh yeah, If forgot to mention you should raise your rev limiter to 7400 they love it.
    That is sooo dangerous its not funny!

    Careful what you mess with Ted......

    Straight from GMPP the springs and such are not designed for anything over 71-7200 and still be safe.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by SS_SC_Cobalt
    That is sooo dangerous its not funny!

    Careful what you mess with Ted......

    Straight from GMPP the springs and such are not designed for anything over 71-7200 and still be safe.
    I am not disagreeing with you but Sustained RPM and Rev limit RPM are 2 different things, IMO I don't think that GM would set the rev limiter at 7000 in the stage 2 if the valve springs were only good to 71-7200.

    That would mean that if the valve springs lost only 3% of there strength they would fail to close the valve at 7000 RPM Sustained.

    I dynoed the car and datalogged everything, with the Rev limiter set at 7000 it starts to cut the ETC at 6700.

    With the Rev limiter at 7400 it starts to cut ETC at 7100 and the motor makes Peak power at 7000 RPM another clue to the cam profile and target RPM.

    Just a little backround I am an Engine builder for 26 years.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING
    I am not disagreeing with you but Sustained RPM and Rev limit RPM are 2 different things, IMO I don't think that GM would set the rev limiter at 7000 in the stage 2 if the valve springs were only good to 71-7200.

    That would mean that if the valve springs lost only 3% of there strength they would fail to close the valve at 7000 RPM Sustained.

    I dynoed the car and datalogged everything, with the Rev limiter set at 7000 it starts to cut the ETC at 6700.

    With the Rev limiter at 7400 it starts to cut ETC at 7100 and the motor makes Peak power at 7000 RPM another clue to the cam profile and target RPM.

    Just a little backround I am an Engine builder for 26 years.
    Ted, know who you are and where you are and your shop in wtby, but this comes from GMPP, the safe redline for these engines stock is between 7150-7200 RPM the spring will float after that guaranteed....I am merely telling you what the MFG says the springs are safe at, IMHO and GM's anything over 7200 is just asking for it. If you feel comfortable doing it on your car, then go for it, but I know this was probably a customers car and am just telling you to avoid anything coming back at ya!

    here is a snippit from GMPP and this is from communication I have from within....
    The engine will not reliably rev greater than 7150-7200rpm without modification. If you want to turn over 7200rpm (we recommend nothing over 7150 for safety) and are looking to increase reliability, we recommend upgrading to high-speed valve springs (Bates Engineering and PSI are possible sources) and using the GM Performance Parts neutral balance shafts 88958615
    BTW the springs are ESGV0001, they fit in the stock head no mods and will give you to 7500+ with total reliability
    Enjoy!
    Last edited by SS_SC_Cobalt; 08-12-2006 at 11:33 AM.

  11. #11
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    Thanks for the info.

  12. #12
    Many people have been setting the rev limits to 7400-7500 and shifting at 7000-7300

    There's no float, at least at the stock lifts
    Not saying this is not without risk but I've got a number of cars shifting at 7300-7400 without incident... all summer long
    WopOnTour

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by WopOnTour
    Many people have been setting the rev limits to 7400-7500 and shifting at 7000-7300

    There's no float, at least at the stock lifts
    Not saying this is not without risk but I've got a number of cars shifting at 7300-7400 without incident... all summer long
    WopOnTour
    just passing on what I was told by GMPP,

  14. #14
    Someone at GMPP??... or GMPD??? (big difference)
    Either way, the tendancy/policy is to err on the "safe side" in emailed response communique' with "end-users"
    But there's nothing like good ol' trial & error though
    I've personally taken the stock LSJ valve train to 8000 on numerous occasions and never heard em float yet.
    I'm more concerned of the retainers/keepers at those speeds than valve float. In general you want to run the lightest spring possible while staying under the float rpm. I'd speculate the rather low lift of the LSJ cams contributes to it's float overhead on seemingly light seat pressures
    Wop
    Last edited by WopOnTour; 08-13-2006 at 06:14 PM.

  15. #15
    Deleted duplicate Post

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by WopOnTour
    Someone at GMPP??... or GMPD??? (big difference)
    Either way, the tendancy/policy is to err on the "safe side" in emailed response communique' with "end-users"
    But there's nothing like good ol' trial & error though
    I've personally taken the stock LSJ valve train to 8000 on numerous occasions and never heard em float yet.
    I'm more concerned of the retainers/keepers at those speeds than valve float. In general you want to run the lightest spring possible while staying under the float rpm. I'd speculate the rather low lift of the LSJ cams contributes to it's float overhead on seemingly light seat pressures
    Wop
    GM Performance division.
    Wop have you swapped to different springs yet, they told me specifically that the stock keepers and retainers are fine with the Bates springs....at the higher speeds.

    Personally I would love to get Ti retainers, but....

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by JANNETTYRACING
    I don't see how you would need 60# injectors at that power level, the math says otherwise.

    Data log your injector duty cycle and see what you have at 7000 RPM.

    Oh yeah, If forgot to mention you should raise your rev limiter to 7400 they love it.
    100% at 6400 rpms is my current duty cycle... hits like 108% @ 7000
    2005 Stage 2 Saturn Ion Redline
    260whp, 225wtq 14.0 @ 13.7 (2nd time dragging)

    RedlineForums.com Moderator and Eager Tuning Noob.
    Chicago, IL

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sp00ner
    100% at 6400 rpms is my current duty cycle... hits like 108% @ 7000
    Something is wrong, fuel pressure must be dropping off or your A/F is extremely rich,
    The highest duty cycle I saw with stock injectors at 7400 was 62% and that is with a very rich A/F if you lean it out that will drop.

    42lb. injectors should support 270 hp at 80% duty cycle with ease.

    60lb. will support 390 hp.

  19. #19
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    What do you mean "PE".

  20. #20
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    power enrichment. not sure why you brought back a post from 2006.
    The most hated, make the most power.
    93 Ranger. 5.3 D1X. 1069hp.