Surging at mid load

[Hobby13]

Guys,
Im working on a 2014 Mustang. 5.0 with a VMP blower. 82mm upper. dual 65mm TB. Long tubes.
I have been fighting this car. Trying different things, reading the forums. Im lost. Im having a hard time understanding fully the way this system all works.
WOT is good, makes good power but surges with driving. I have tried populating a torque table with steady state on the dyno and when it starts surging it bounces all over and I cannot get a proper reading. Ive tried different Throttle body data. Even went as far as putting the stock TB back on so I could have stock data I knew was ok.

Any help or suggestions would be so appreciated.
Thank you so much.

[murfie]

Fix your torque tables. Smooth them then calculate. You don't want zero in the load tables.

TTL-LTT.PNG

I copied the values from a stock 2014 torque table into your tune and compared it to itself. It seems like you are going the wrong direction and are actually saying its making less torque at the same load. A lot less.

Vs stock.PNG

[Hobby13]

Murfie,
Thank you for your help.
I do agree that those values are less than stock. I was just putting values in that I got during steady state populating on the dyno. I get the same surge with many different tables I have tried.
Here is my same tune but with torque/inverse table and DD table from a roush tune I got from the repository. Does the same surge.


On a side note. Am I doing something wrong with my config. that is would show torque that low when logging it or am I missing something?

[murfie]

Your layout seems to be using the axis values from a stock tune and not your updated axs values. If you are copy/pasting from the scanner you may be putting values in the wrong places.

If you are going to be modifying your throttle body model from good data it shouldn't be so out of order as well. Make it like what I have in the spreadsheet or follow how a stock one goes.

8.765 TB.xlsx

[Hobby13]

Murfie,
I forgot this morning to change the load points on the layout when I change the torque/inverse tables to the roush ones. When I was on the dyno it was correct.
The current TB data is from a file I found on the forums when searching for a ford 65mm dual TB.

[Bill@HPTuners]

Just to let you know I've had this issue on my own personal vehicle, also a 2014 Mustang, procharged in my case. Haven't found a fix thus far unfortunately.

[MRRPMBRP]

My Shelby was surging some, I just datalogged the torque, and put the torque I recorded in the torque table, didn't do anything to the inverse, surging was way better. Not sure how you're supposed to fill in the torque table, but that's what I tried, seemed to work ok. I made sure datalogging table was exactly like my torque table, same rows & columns, then it was copy & paste. Still haven't tried the inverse calculator yet, but will soon.

[Bill@HPTuners]

My Shelby was surging some, I just datalogged the torque, and put the torque I recorded in the torque table, didn't do anything to the inverse, surging was way better. Not sure how you're supposed to fill in the torque table, but that's what I tried, seemed to work ok. I made sure datalogging table was exactly like my torque table, same rows & columns, then it was copy & paste. Still haven't tried the inverse calculator yet, but will soon.

curious as to which tq you put in.
scheduled tq
engine brake tq
etc tq request
desired brake tq
other?

I'm all for trying new things but the problem I faced and that the OP is facing is even the scheduled tq oscillates by 100+/- ftlb when the issue occurs.

[Bill@HPTuners]

driverdemand.JPGdriverdemand2.JPG

My concern is not understanding the correlation between the driver demand, torque source, scheduled torque and the indicated engine tq tables. Obviously they all work together somehow but not knowing how makes for a whole lot of guessing. I'm not really keen on guessing at every turn. As you can see above driver demand is the tq source, scheduled tq is saying 318 but driver demand table should only be commanding like maybe 200.

[Bill@HPTuners]

Guys,
Im working on a 2014 Mustang. 5.0 with a VMP blower. 82mm upper. dual 65mm TB. Long tubes.
I have been fighting this car. Trying different things, reading the forums. Im lost. Im having a hard time understanding fully the way this system all works.
WOT is good, makes good power but surges with driving. I have tried populating a torque table with steady state on the dyno and when it starts surging it bounces all over and I cannot get a proper reading. Ive tried different Throttle body data. Even went as far as putting the stock TB back on so I could have stock data I knew was ok.

Any help or suggestions would be so appreciated.
Thank you so much.

Hey OP, are you able to log trans throttle position? I've been doing some testing on my own car since I'm off this week and found adjusting the driver demand tables accordingly helped ALOT. From the looks of it lets say you are at part throttle and just trying to hold it at like 30-35% throttle, the trans throttle position might have you at the 170 marker, for instance, well if you hold it there the desired tq actually goes down based on rpm so if you stay at the same trans throttle position but rpm keeps going up you'll hit the next cell over and the ecm appears to want to pull tq away. I'll continue doing some testing on my own this week but initial testing went pretty well thus far.

[15PSI]

These values come from a 2013 5.0 with a TVS S/C, 79mm Upper, Twin 67mm, 93 Octane. Car runs very well with no hesitation. Just a suggestion, but I have used these on others similar to yours. I would change your torque and inverse tables as well.

Tune No Issues.png

[15PSI]

Also, Change Pedal Position WOT end to 542

[15PSI]

Made a mistake during screenshot. Use these figures. I somehow copied yours over to my values. Apologies



.Torque.png

[MRRPMBRP]

curious as to which tq you put in.
scheduled tq
engine brake tq
etc tq request
desired brake tq
other?

I'm all for trying new things but the problem I faced and that the OP is facing is even the scheduled tq oscillates by 100+/- ftlb when the issue occurs.

I'm logging indicated torque. I assume this is measured torque, as the motor runs. I haven't put it on the dyno yet, just driving around.
I'm attaching my graph table file, have a look, it may could be of use to you, idk.

2014_GT500graphs.Graphs.xml

[Puggyberra]

driverdemand.JPGdriverdemand2.JPG

My concern is not understanding the correlation between the driver demand, torque source, scheduled torque and the indicated engine tq tables. Obviously they all work together somehow but not knowing how makes for a whole lot of guessing. I'm not really keen on guessing at every turn. As you can see above driver demand is the tq source, scheduled tq is saying 318 but driver demand table should only be commanding like maybe 200.

Edit: Bill did better research and made a much better post than mine, link https://forum.hptuners.com/showthrea...rol-ETC-System

Hey Bill, I know you've uploaded your tune before but you post so often it wasn't in the first two pages of your posts. I know the ecoboosts have a pedal map ratio that multiply vs the driver demand table to get the final torque value, if yours has that table that could be why you're seeing a scheduled higher than what you'd expect from driver demand.

As to the different torque parameters you can log, brake torque is what the ecu estimates the engine is making with current conditions. The torque numbers in the load tables should be the correct ones for the engine under Ford's standard testing conditions, so real world in the same cell you'll typically see less torque due to atmospheric conditions, spark potentially not being at MBT, and any other conditions the ecu is estimating. Scheduled torque can be from the driver demand table, but it can also be from a maximum torque limit (if your strategy has torque max limits in the transmission for instance), it should be the lower of those two. Then indicated torque reference should be your driver demand torque amount.

As for torque source or driver demand source those are generally just going to show you a limit in the ecu (ie: traction control, rpm limit, exhaust temp protect, popcorn, cylinder pressure limit, etc), there isn't a torque table to correlate to those limit sources because the ecu will hold the engine at the maximum amount of that limit it can or try to get out of the limit depending what it is. To that end the ecu can basically reverse engineer from the limit its at to the maximum torque it can make based on that limit and that will become your scheduled torque and shortly thereafter your brake torque. The particular names are from the ecoboosts that I play with more, but the idea of what the different torque parameters and sources show/do should carry over to the coyotes.

[murfie]

I'm curious if anyone has tried modifying the ETC vaccum axis so that the pressure differential pre and post throttle body cant get so low on these centri cars.

ETC vaccum.PNG

[murfie]

Ok so instead of modifying the axis like I first thought, you need to duplicate what you see eco boost cars do. For example in your last log you need to take note of where the oscillations begin.

Throttle angle.PNG

Throttle angle2.PNG

In the last log you posted both started around 15* throttle angle. I believe this is because ETC vacuum is actually higher than the NA TB table is allowing. To fix this you need to make the values go static above that angle. This seems to be how whipple and eco boost allow the TB model to deal with boost as it can then use as high of a pressure differential it need to to make correct torque calculations. The stock TB is static below 2 inHg ETC vacuum which probably makes it easier to tune.

For example this is how I would modify your TB model. You almost don't even need the calculator for it.

Before
TB model mod.PNG

After
TB model after mod.PNG

[Bill@HPTuners]

Ok so instead of modifying the axis like I first thought, you need to duplicate what you see eco boost cars do. For example in your last log you need to take note of where the oscillations begin.

Throttle angle.PNG

Throttle angle2.PNG

In the last log you posted both started around 15* throttle angle. I believe this is because ETC vacuum is actually higher than the NA TB table is allowing. To fix this you need to make the values go static above that angle. This seems to be how whipple and eco boost allow the TB model to deal with boost as it can then use as high of a pressure differential it need to to make correct torque calculations. The stock TB is static below 2 inHg ETC vacuum which probably makes it easier to tune.

For example this is how I would modify your TB model. You almost don't even need the calculator for it.

Before
TB model mod.PNG

After
TB model after mod.PNG

Murfie, just a heads up I tried this, didn't work for me unfortunately. I have one other thing for the OP to try but he hasn't responded in this thread in 4 days so I feel like I'd be talking to air.

[C_Murph12]

What about the torque limits listed in the (manual) transmission? Is it possible that these need to be recalibrated in order to rid PD cars of the surging?