Changes in tune for 102mm w/ PD Supercharger?

[jsllc]

so thats what that was... i have only recently had that feeling of misfires at a cruise its not all the time but have noticed it and it was related at the same time some spark was being removed in little spikes i was thinking it was spark smoothing or something, is the TB airflow torque going to be something we can adjust in the future ?

There are 3 tables that are throttle position/rpm airflow. If you need them you can find them in brand "E" I am working on getting them in HPT.

[CI GS]

OK then - the NW should take care of all of your problems - it would be better if you had the torque model tables, but not 100% necessary right now - when they're added just make sure to change them... For now you can change the etc scaler and even up it a little over what it's supposed to be to compensate for the torque model edits not being present - something like 7500 should be good enough... Dial in your idle and go from there...

Thanks Man. That's the best news I've heard in a while. I'm using 7380 as my new baseline ETC scaler, which I got from an old post by Greg Bannish. From your experience, do you think that's too high a number for the NW102?
Here's the tune I've been using lately, with the only change in it being the new ETC scaler) and one of the logs where it closed the throttle and went into REP Mode:

[jsllc]

Area of TB is 7253. Area of throttle - width*9 or 8171 - (102*9)

[jsllc]

Thanks Man. That's the best news I've heard in a while. I'm using 7380 as my new baseline ETC scaler, which I got from an old post by Greg Bannish. From your experience, do you think that's too high a number for the NW102?
Here's the tune I've been using lately, with the only change in it being the new ETC scaler) and one of the logs where it closed the throttle and went into REP Mode:

Looking at your log you are missing to many PIDs to tell why but an 8degree swing in timing @ 5200 rpm means there is an issue. Usually knock but could be other things.

[NJ_Phil]

My thinking is the required torque to keep the TB blade in position is minimal at WOT because the blade is perpendicular to the flow, or should be, no matter how high it that airflow is. Guess that's obvious.

You guys have a lot more experience, but to me this looks like 2 problems.
The first problem is the ECM starts to close the TB around 42.763 in the log. The TPS goes from 80% to 48% in about 200 milliseconds which seems a controlled movement with reasonable response time. Why the ECM is shutting things down is unknown.

The second problem is the TB then goes from 48% to 72% in about 40 milliseconds which seems unreasonable because there's no way the electronics/mechnics can move that load and mass that fast, that's faster than your fastest eye blink

There are 2 different fixes to the second problem, depending on whether the TPS shown in the log is the commanded position or the actual position. If it's commanded position, it means whatever reason the ECM closed the TB has "gone away" and the REP was caused by the TB failing to re-open within that 40 ms. If it's the actual position, it means the ECM detected the TB re-opening when it should have been at a more closed position (more likely).

Not sure how GM controls the TB motor but believe it's a stepper with serperate encoder for position feedback. Also not sure if it has the usual seperate torque settings for moving (accellll/decell) and when stationary (holding). When moving, too little a torque setting causes position errors because not enough power to move under load (high airflows) and too high a torque setting causes the same errors because of current spikes on the driver output and noise on the cable. Equally important is the motion profile and how fast the accell/decell ramp is. Once it's in position, it's usually hard to move them out of position and torque can be lowered to keep the motor cool but risk of making it weaker and getting knocked out of position So it comes down to; is it a problem of being knocked out of position when it's stopped .(fix #2 if TPS= actual position) or is it a problem of too little or too much torque and unrealistic motion profile (Fix #1 if TPS = commanded position) .

I know exactly what the TB needs to work properly, just don't know how those needs are controlled by the tune. (demand tables, follower, etc). Not looking to hijack this and get educated on how it works, just trying to help Sammy out and want to say moving a stepper under high loads isn't trivial and bigger isn't necessarily better in some cases. I'd spend some time checking the obvious things, like making sure the voltages (Vbat, VCC feeding the TB, etc) are up to par, make sure the TB cabeling isn't routed close to other noisey lines, especially the ignition coils. Another possibility, although remote, is the drivers in the ECM are damaged.

There is also the 1st problem of why is the TB closing at WOT in the first place.

All IMHO


EDIT: Noise and possible ECM failure don't apply if TB assy. has built in motor drivers

[CI GS]

My thinking is the required torque to keep the TB blade in position is minimal at WOT because the blade is perpendicular to the flow, or should be, no matter how high it that airflow is. Guess that's obvious.

You guys have a lot more experience, but to me this looks like 2 problems.
The first problem is the ECM starts to close the TB around 42.763 in the log. The TPS goes from 80% to 48% in about 200 milliseconds which seems a controlled movement with reasonable response time. Why the ECM is shutting things down is unknown.

The second problem is the TB then goes from 48% to 72% in about 40 milliseconds which seems unreasonable because there's no way the electronics/mechnics can move that load and mass that fast, that's faster than your fastest eye blink

There are 2 different fixes to the second problem, depending on whether the TPS shown in the log is the commanded position or the actual position. If it's commanded position, it means whatever reason the ECM closed the TB has "gone away" and the REP was caused by the TB failing to re-open within that 40 ms. If it's the actual position, it means the ECM detected the TB re-opening when it should have been at a more closed position (more likely).

Not sure how GM controls the TB motor but believe it's a stepper with serperate encoder for position feedback. Also not sure if it has the usual seperate torque settings for moving (accellll/decell) and when stationary (holding). When moving, too little a torque setting causes position errors because not enough power to move under load (high airflows) and too high a torque setting causes the same errors because of current spikes on the driver output and noise on the cable. Equally important is the motion profile and how fast the accell/decell ramp is. Once it's in position, it's usually hard to move them out of position and torque can be lowered to keep the motor cool but risk of making it weaker and getting knocked out of position So it comes down to; is it a problem of being knocked out of position when it's stopped .(fix #2 if TPS= actual position) or is it a problem of too little or too much torque and unrealistic motion profile (Fix #1 if TPS = commanded position) .

I know exactly what the TB needs to work properly, just don't know how those needs are controlled by the tune. (demand tables, follower, etc). Not looking to hijack this and get educated on how it works, just trying to help Sammy out and want to say moving a stepper under high loads isn't trivial and bigger isn't necessarily better in some cases. I'd spend some time checking the obvious things, like making sure the voltages (Vbat, VCC feeding the TB, etc) are up to par, make sure the TB cabeling isn't routed close to other noisey lines, especially the ignition coils. Another possibility, although remote, is the drivers in the ECM are damaged.

There is also the 1st problem of why is the TB closing at WOT in the first place.

All IMHO


EDIT: Noise and possible ECM failure don't apply if TB assy. has built in motor drivers

Thanks Phil. All good stuff. I have no clue myself on exactly how the throttle motor works.
At the end of the day, I’m more concerned with solving this REP problem than anything else, which is why I wanted to take the TB out of the equation. There’s lots of people who have had problems with the LS3 TB on PD blowers though, more so than with centris that are moving more air, so I’m thinking maybe it has something to do with the vacuum behind the throttle body creating turbulence that causes the motor to lose control of the blade?
The TPS shown in the graph section of the datalog is the actually throttle position. If you look at the listed pids on the left of the graph, you will see that alongside the pedal/commanded position, and you can see that three fluctuation, which, to be honest, I’m not experienced enough to opine on whether that’s normal or not. All I can say is that when it reaches ~6800rpm in 3rd, it simply slams the throttle shut and goes into REP mode (or vice versa?).
BTW: I am using an ECM that I bought from Chuck CoW way back when, with his throttle booster mods in it? I still have my stock ECM, so I’m thinking of trying that next.
Thanks to all of you for your input, which is greatly appreciated.

[CI GS]

Looking at your log you are missing to many PIDs to tell why but an 8degree swing in timing @ 5200 rpm means there is an issue. Usually knock but could be other things.

What part of the log are you looking at? It typically pulls 8 degrees of timing on each shift via TM. I have never seen KR on this car, or heard knock. I typically run this thing on a 50/50 mixture of 93 pump mixed to ~100 octane with BOOSTane and VP MS 103. That’s why it had when I took that log. What else are you thinking might be causing it? Thanks.

[NJ_Phil]

Another possibility is heat affecting the strength of the motor. You seem to hit the same airflows, RPMs, etc... in 2nd without REP so it's possible the higher current applied to the motor for longer times, i.e: WOT 1st, 2nd, 3rd, is causing the drivers and windings to get hotter which reduces strength of the motor. More evidence of this might be acting up in the summer months. Maybe pack a baggie with ice and wrap it around the TB motor and try a few pulls. Not that it's a fix, just more clues to what's failing

[jsllc]

What part of the log are you looking at? It typically pulls 8 degrees of timing on each shift via TM. I have never seen KR on this car, or heard knock. I typically run this thing on a 50/50 mixture of 93 pump mixed to ~100 octane with BOOSTane and VP MS 103. That?s why it had when I took that log. What else are you thinking might be causing it? Thanks.

This did not look right to me. I would not do that to fuel. The stoic values are very different and Boostane which I like a lot has some interesting effects on race gas. If you want to run Boostane make sure the fuel is pure. Set stoic for that fuel and go. I would run MS109 in VP or my preference is Gulf 116. Your PID list is way to small to diagnose the issues.

9-27-2017 8-52-07 AM.png

[GHuggins]

OK, can I just get one thing clarified? Is it going into REP with the updated NW TB? It should never have issues is what I'm saying - you still have to adjust the throttle settings in the tune due to slower movements (increase all 4 throttle dtc tables P2101 and P1516 to 14% and do a write entire) - other than that I haven't seen a single problem...

Problem is the bigger plates turn into wings and requires a lot of torque to maintain position which the OE stock motors can't provide...

[Area47]

set the scaler to 8170-8190. adjust running air flow. back off the throttle opening rates so it's not a light switch when you step into it, or coming off a stop light in traffic. I have gotten a few of the 102's to drive like a stock car with manipulation of tables to get around other issues.

[CI GS]

OK, can I just get one thing clarified? Is it going into REP with the updated NW TB? It should never have issues is what I'm saying - you still have to adjust the throttle settings in the tune due to slower movements (increase all 4 throttle dtc tables P2101 and P1516 to 14% and do a write entire) - other than that I haven't seen a single problem...

Problem is the bigger plates turn into wings and requires a lot of torque to maintain position which the OE stock motors can't provide...

No, I haven?t tried the NW yet. The log I posted was from a few weeks back.
I had already done the slave segment update which added the P1516 DTC adjustment, and then, on the advice of a very knowledgeable guy on CF, I bumped them all up from 6% (stock) to 30%, but that didn?t help either. I managed to get the car back together and test fired it with the NW for the first time this morning, and it?s idling decent, but with the 102mm and a new 4.5? inlet, the fuel trims are off by 18-20% at idle. So I will need to tweak the MAF table now.
Here?s a link to a short video I shot this morning with the car idling. Once the weather permits, I?m going to put it in the road to get a decent log.
https://youtu.be/KRGa4_AfKzE

[CI GS]

This did not look right to me. I would not do that to fuel. The stoic values are very different and Boostane which I like a lot has some interesting effects on race gas. If you want to run Boostane make sure the fuel is pure. Set stoic for that fuel and go. I would run MS109 in VP or my preference is Gulf 116. Your PID list is way to small to diagnose the issues.

9-27-2017 8-52-07 AM.png

Thanks, I’ll take a closer look at the log shortly. I hadn’t even noticed that. Weird that it’s moving timing around like that. I haven’t had a problem with mixing non-oxygenated non-E race gas with pump 93/BOOSTane. Right now I have just 93 and BOOSTane in it. I’ve run straight MS 109, with is oxygenated and has a lower stoich, so I adjust the tune for that. Ditto for Sunoco GT260 Plus, which has Ethanol and a stoich of 13.98, IIRC. But I cant imagine how any of this would trigger REP mode?
What PIDs should I add?

[CI GS]

set the scaler to 8170-8190. adjust running air flow. back off the throttle opening rates so it's not a light switch when you step into it, or coming off a stop light in traffic. I have gotten a few of the 102's to drive like a stock car with manipulation of tables to get around other issues.

I’ll give that scaler a try, once I get it on the road, thanks. When you say “back off the throttle opening rates”, what do you mean? I thought we couldn’t mess with those settings?

[CI GS]

Another possibility is heat affecting the strength of the motor. You seem to hit the same airflows, RPMs, etc... in 2nd without REP so it's possible the higher current applied to the motor for longer times, i.e: WOT 1st, 2nd, 3rd, is causing the drivers and windings to get hotter which reduces strength of the motor. More evidence of this might be acting up in the summer months. Maybe pack a baggie with ice and wrap it around the TB motor and try a few pulls. Not that it's a fix, just more clues to what's failing

This what has always baffled me. It only happens at WOT, at the top of the RPM band, and almost always happens only in 3rd gear? I was wondering if it was hitting the limiter and then going into REP mode, but the limiter is set at 7200. Probably the only baggie I should put that stock throttle body in is the garbage. It?s actually on my truck right now. I swapped it on that last week and I swear it?s having a harder time controlling the idle than the identical LS3 gold blade TB that was on the truck before. I hope that I never have that REP problem again, or I?ll probably go into REP mode myself. We will soon know if it was the TB or not, soon as the weather clears.

[jsllc]

Start with these PIDs. Yours may be a little different as you most likely do not have all of the sensors an e67 has.
9-27-2017 8-18-41 PM.png

[CI GS]

Start with these PIDs. Yours may be a little different as you most likely do not have all of the sensors an e67 has.
9-27-2017 8-18-41 PM.png

Okay. Thanks, I'll create another layout with those PIDS and see how that works. BTW: From that screenshot that you posted, I see that your layout is completely different from mine and some of the PIDS that I can see on my layout on my laptop don't even show up on the pic you posted.
I've seen that its pulling ~8* of timing on each shift and even when the TCC locks up at ~90mph in 3rd. It does this even when I turn the TM off completely. It appears that its not possible to get rid of TM completely? I believe what you've circled there is when the TCC locks up.

[jsllc]

So the way the current HPT works it polls as fast as possible (more realtime). The fewer PIDs you have (until the software can poll no faster 10ms) the faster it polls. The more you have the slower until it floods the USB port. I choose to pick the ones I need for a particular are I am working on and some others that I have on every list. I have 4 sets in total. We need all of the ones on the list your car supports to chase this a little. Add what you wish to it but you may find your computer scanner hangs when the bus gets too full.

If that is where it shifts then that tq management is being dictated by the transmission. Be very careful there.

[Area47]

I’ll give that scaler a try, once I get it on the road, thanks. When you say “back off the throttle opening rates”, what do you mean? I thought we couldn’t mess with those settings?

there is an opening rate under air flow, electronic throttle. you can slow this down by percentage off idle say 63%, then 70/75/100. whatever you wish to put in there to slow down the reaction of the tb motor itself.

[jsllc]

I am going to differ with the others here and say use the correct numbers for the TB. There are many other tables that are throttle position / air flow sensitive. The misleading of the ECM about the size will have negative effects. If you want the throttle response to be less sensitive at the pedal just change the pedal position / throttle blade position table. You can make it as soft as you wish. You do not have to slow down the blade response or mislead the ECM on the size. But like all tuning may ways to get to the same place. I just try to use the math in away that is accurate for the ECM.