Bad PCM or Tune Issue

[FlatTop]

I have a mess. Wanting to go faster I pulled a perfectly running 5.7 VVT motor stroker 392 with Vortech Blower, cam stock 392 with a limiter, 4000 stall, built NAG1 trans, and supporting mods that run 10:20 at 134 all day long.
So I built a 6.1 426cu stroker, custom anodized pistons dished 10:1 cr. Molnar crank, manley rods, and Apache heads, 80lb@42psi ford injectors and I'm at 62psi fuel, also with a custom blower cam that is on a 111, 710 lift with 1.6 rockers and 298 duration. Cam worked well in another blower car so its tunable. Sounded nasty in a buddys car but was cmr tuned. Soooo,,,
I purchased a pcm and it was flashed for my Vin. I swapped motors out, fired the motor and it just wouldn't run as I got codes for the throttle and I get the dash lights on with lightning bolt light code telling me its a TB issue. Hard to believe as my car ran perfect when I put it on the rack.
After checking everything, I sent the pcm back where purchased and they flashed me another pcm. Installed it and same issue. Would not idle or run worth a snot, same dash lights lightning bolt, abs,TC light, codes P0113, P2122 TB codes. And yes I even changed TB just to check.
It don't go into ST/LT fuel trims either and it just dumps fuel. TB only opens to like 15% I wonder if because I don't have manifold vac is it keeping the TB from working like a safe mode combination of tune being way off. I have a 2 bar MAP sensor for the blower.
Presently The company that supply my pcm is now flashing my stock 5.7 pcm to run the 6.1 as they figure it may be something in the 09 VVT PCM that ran my car would possibly work once flashed and tuned. I have TB issue, and fuel Issue so it barley idles.
Makes me wonder, that possible those pcm don't play well in my car, that's why were flashing my stock 5.7 pcm now. Its being flashed and tuned with CMR, for now. Once I get it running as it was running, I will be using HPT tuning.
For now I just need it to run.
While I'm waiting on my pcm to be sent back to me, I decided to go ahead and try the pcm they already flashed and sent me that has not worked so far with cmr,,, to see if I could get it to run on the HP software.
I have HPT pro, and I did the throttle relearn and I dropped a stock tune in it and it ran long enough to get some data. I just don't know HP software like the cmr I been using and absolutely hate cmr.
I enclosed my tune and what data log I could get running for 45 seconds. I hate to dump so much fuel in a new motor.
Any of you guru s can look at it and throw any ideas, tune file, map, anything at me I would appreciate it. Glad to be in your community. At least I see everyone helping each other. The others keep it all top secret like its black magic or voo doo. I understand they tune for a living but come on. lol lol

I wonder is it a problem with the cam and vacuum not letting fuel trims and TB work. I just don't know. Or even pcm related issue. Thanks a lot for any help or ideas.
FlatTop

[06300CSRT8]

What count tone ring is in the new motor versus old? Any VVT PCM will be looking for a reluctor wheel count specific to the VVT motor, you would have had to change the reluctor wheel at the time of the build to the same count as the VVT.

If you obtained a 6.1 based PCM, it might work.

[FlatTop]

Thanks for the help. It is a 6.1 reluctor wheel and I knew that when I put it together. I was told by the
big hemi shops that my pcm could be flashed to work or a 6.1 pcm that I have already tried that didn't work was supposed to.
Other s have done the same build/swap as me with a 09 RT VVT motor and used there 5.7vvt pcm having it flashed for 6.1 and had no issue.
Theres are running now, and I'm not. Well Ill wait till m y 5.7 pcm comes back with the 6.1 flash that's supposed to work and go from there I guess. Having a 6.1 pcm in now and it don't work has my confidence very low. Why I was asking if the tune was so far off if the tune would put the car into a no run mode so to say. Just fishing for any info I could find.
Thanks
FlatTop

[Kmoney]

Did you remember to reconnect the sensor grounds on the back of the heads? I would disconnect PCM, Air temp, and tb wiring and check for shorts to ground and continuity to other wires in the loom. You might have a pinched wiring headed to the front of the motor. Goodluck. and report back..

[Kmoney]

I also remember when I added my blower I damaged my Air temp sensor and it turned on he lighting bolt.

[FlatTop]

Yes on the head grounds. I didn't get any codes on that sensor as I did when I forgot to plug it in. easy fix and ill be checking them all.
I spent all night researching circuits and pcm failures and anything that sounded like my issue and then some.
I was just going to go through the total system like your saying, just so I know its not an issue on my end. I like the HP data logging as it seems to be ok to use.
Strange I drove into the shop and put it on the rack and dropped the motor out the bottom as ive done many times before without issue, spent 15k on motor parts and I'm dead in the water. And then I get this. Seems 6 speed guys have been ok with the swap, but auto
nag 1 I have not found anyone who has done it, yet. Course I hear key board internet noise about people who have,,,but ya know did they really ? lol lol
Any ideas I'm all ears. I hate to put the 5.7 back in and be stuck in the low 10s but least it ran.
Thanks Guys
FlatTop

[Kmoney]

so what codes do you have left. since you plugged in the sensor?

[06300CSRT8]

Thanks for the help. It is a 6.1 reluctor wheel and I knew that when I put it together. I was told by the
big hemi shops that my pcm could be flashed to work or a 6.1 pcm that I have already tried that didn't work was supposed to.
Other s have done the same build/swap as me with a 09 RT VVT motor and used there 5.7vvt pcm having it flashed for 6.1 and had no issue.
Theres are running now, and I'm not. Well Ill wait till m y 5.7 pcm comes back with the 6.1 flash that's supposed to work and go from there I guess. Having a 6.1 pcm in now and it don't work has my confidence very low. Why I was asking if the tune was so far off if the tune would put the car into a no run mode so to say. Just fishing for any info I could find.
Thanks
FlatTop

Still a little confused, the tune you attached in your OP was a 5.7 PCM. You have another PCM in the car now that is a true 6.1L and still doesn't run? Do you have a scan of that PCM I can look at? Still seems like you haven't got a true 6.1L based PCM in there. The reluctor wheel counts aren't programmable to my knowledge.

[FlatTop]

I noticed and did see its a 5.7 pcm flashed to a 6.1 that was supposed to run the car. The data and tune is whats in the pcm now. I understand and know the difference in reluctor wheels are different either 32 or 58 tooth for 5.7 or 6.1 It is a 6.1 reluctor wheel on the crank.
I thought they would of sent me a 6.1 pcm and don't know why not or why they didn't. I have just sent them my original 5.7 vvt pcm to flash make it work and they got my trinity tuner also so they can test it all on the bench from my undefrstanding.
Mine is an auto also, I understand others have had success doing this swap by flashing a 5.7 pcm However, those were all 6 speed cars, none as an auto. Something about the TCM Nag 1 trans and everything not being happy working together.

On the pcm in the car now is a 5.7 pcm, supposed flashed to run a 6.1 I thought the reluctor wheel was programmable with the dodge tool.

The only codes I get are the p0129 baro to low
p2167 throttle pedal
p 2166
p2116
p2115
p0633 key not programed. But it starts, I was told as it key cycles it will clear that code.

I know I said this before, but the car drove into the shop, I myself, as always careful as I drop my motors out the bottom and not pinch a wire but shit happens and if I need to trouble shoot the system as mentiond above I will. If I knew the pcm and all was really working as should it make me feel better about the work ahead.

In fact tonight I will go through the wiring right to the pcm, terminal by terminal. Id just like to know has Anyone ever done this swap and it worked ? 09 Challenger Auto. 5.7 to a 6.1 base. six speed I find, but not one auto, yet. That I can find.

Thanks Guys, I'm very persistant and never give up
FlatTop

[Kmoney]

Who is doing this flashing? so you've installed a 6.1non vvt engine into a 5.7vvt car that has a 5.7vvt pcm backwards flashed to behave as a 6.1 05-07 pcm..

[FlatTop]

Correct kmoney, I wont say who because I don't want to get a the shop or there tuner in any kind of hassle. It is a very well know shop and tuner that has made huge strides in the modern mopar kingdom. In fact many would not have what we got now or yet if it wasn't from this shop producing what they have.
But being I'm having so much trouble getting my own ride to run I am trying to get any and all the info I can.
I did this build with understanding the swap works, however I can only find 6 speed cars it has worked with, that's it, no stock autos like nag1. I can do a chevy trans with a stand alone tcm and it will work and has been done. Another 10k is all, choke. With all the bells and whistles like trans brake built to handle 1000 plus hp.
Thanks
FlatTop

[Monzsta]

Why is your "closed loop enable" coolant temp enable set at 14 degrees F?

6.1 Hemi's have a modified tone ring.
http://i83.photobucket.com/albums/j3...r/SAM_0541.jpg

VVT 5.7 Hemi's have a 58-2 tooth pattern.
http://www.modernmusclextreme.com/p-...onversion.aspx

You might have a fundamental problem a flash can't solve.

[Kmoney]

i dont see what the trans would have to do with your issue. We just have to make sure you have the correct hardware and software that works.

[Kmoney]

I noticed and did see its a 5.7 pcm flashed to a 6.1 that was supposed to run the car. The data and tune is whats in the pcm now. I understand and know the difference in reluctor wheels are different either 32 or 58 tooth for 5.7 or 6.1 It is a 6.1 reluctor wheel on the crank.
I thought they would of sent me a 6.1 pcm and don't know why not or why they didn't. I have just sent them my original 5.7 vvt pcm to flash make it work and they got my trinity tuner also so they can test it all on the bench from my undefrstanding.
Mine is an auto also, I understand others have had success doing this swap by flashing a 5.7 pcm However, those were all 6 speed cars, none as an auto. Something about the TCM Nag 1 trans and everything not being happy working together.

On the pcm in the car now is a 5.7 pcm, supposed flashed to run a 6.1 I thought the reluctor wheel was programmable with the dodge tool.

The only codes I get are the p0129 baro to low
p2167 throttle pedal
p 2166
p2116
p2115
p0633 key not programed. But it starts, I was told as it key cycles it will clear that code.

I know I said this before, but the car drove into the shop, I myself, as always careful as I drop my motors out the bottom and not pinch a wire but shit happens and if I need to trouble shoot the system as mentiond above I will. If I knew the pcm and all was really working as should it make me feel better about the work ahead.

In fact tonight I will go through the wiring right to the pcm, terminal by terminal. Id just like to know has Anyone ever done this swap and it worked ? 09 Challenger Auto. 5.7 to a 6.1 base. six speed I find, but not one auto, yet. That I can find.

Thanks Guys, I'm very persistant and never give up
FlatTop

Sooooo, What is the part number on the Map installed in the car?
And Tbody?
Sounds like your having issues controlling the TBODY.

[FlatTop]

I am very familiar with Modern Muscle and spend thousands with them. Good shop.
Was told that a flash will work, however here I sit dead.

The map is from my Vorteck blower install and no visible pn on it, I know its 2 bar and probably from a srt4 as that's most commonly used.
Correct I have no TB control. Have changed TB already to a know working TB.
My wideband shows 12.2 a.f when trying to idle and I don't get STFT even when I get to operating temps.

I have checked for good grounds, checked for open circuits and or grounded circuits as none found at this time. and the 14f set at that temp is what I pulled from the pcm I was sent. I have not set any scalars or made any adjustments.
Thanks FlatTop

[06300CSRT8]

Your issue is still going to be the reluctor wheel and pcm combo. Your buddies that have done the swap in the past kept their vvt pcm, which you should have, but I can promise you they put the 58-2 reluctor in their 6.1L motor. No one tried what you have tried, which was to leave the 6.1L reluctor wheel installed and switch PCMs to the 6.1L.

I am not aware of any software able to edit the reluctor wheel count or completely write over the PCM with a different operating system (i.e. flash the 5.7 to a 6.1). The VVT FCM and CAN BUS is entirely different than the 6.1L based setup, I don't think a regular 6.1L PCM can even function when plugged into the VVT based vehicle. For any chance for it to even work, you would HAVE to ensure the 6.1L PCM was a 2007+ year PCM. The 2005-2006 6.1L had an entirely different hardware configuration.

Have you gotten your 5.7L PCM back reprogrammed? As I mentioned I don't think it can be modified to work with the 6.1L reluctor wheel, but curious if I can be proven wrong.

[[email protected]]

Flattop, We have performed this swap in the past without issue. We used a 6.1 reluctor wheel and a 6.1 calibration. There is also a wiring change required at the the c100 plug for the TB 5v reference that must be completed.

06300srt8 - on VVT calibrations only it is possible to change the reluctor tooth count. I can't find it in HPT but in CMR it's under "Hardware switches".

[06300CSRT8]

Flattop, We have performed this swap in the past without issue. We used a 6.1 reluctor wheel and a 6.1 calibration. There is also a wiring change required at the the c100 plug for the TB 5v reference that must be completed.

06300srt8 - on VVT calibrations only it is possible to change the reluctor tooth count. I can't find it in HPT but in CMR it's under "Hardware switches".

Thx Mike, missed that.

[Turbo2gnx]

well i woke up to a similar issue. the car was running great yesterday, i wakeup and the car wont start! it doesent carnk normal on all tries. half a crank and the next try a full cant and no start. lighting bolt is on! i noticed after waiting for a few, the light went off andd car started and ran fine! shut it downt, and tried again, lighting bolt on and wont start! ive relearned throttle and reset the addaptives with no help. no stft on log, wide band has dashes and not working and injectior pw is at 45ms and then down to 0 ms. anybody exsperienced this before or might have any ideas what my issue could be?