Mafless tune not giving correct AFR

[murhur]

Hi There,

I'm very new to this and only at the very beginning of my tuning career, so please forgive my dumbness, everything I've learnt has been through reading and trying to understand things myself

I recently bought HP tuners to tune cars myself as this really interests me and I am becoming increasingly untrusting of tuning shops from previous experiences

I had my car dyno tuned at the beginning of the year.
I have a Holden VE SS 2012, which is a 6.0L V8 AFM (afm has been disabled by tune)
It has a full 3" X-force exhaust (Headers right through) and a VCM OTR and makes 262kw according to the Dyno Sheet.

I recently put my car on another dyno and found that my car is running lean during WOT pulls (around the 13.5 AFR) which I don't think is correct, especially if my car is supposed to be "tuned"

From what I can see its commanding a 12.8 AFR(1.145 Lambda) in the PE Tables

So my understanding is that my VE tables are out, Would this be a correct assumption?

How would I go about correcting this?
I have access to a dyno whenever needed, so how would I go about using it to fix my problems?
And is there anything that anyone can see is wrong with my tune file?

Any suggestions are welcome, I'm here to learn

Thanks

2012 SS 6L.hpt

[Codes]

How are you taking the AFR readings? Wideband fitted? The tune to me looks fairly decent meaning nothing seems to be out of whack. Have you logged a dyno pull? If so can you post it along with your layout file.

Your VE could be out but there could also be some other adder tables at play.

Just a FYI Lambda=Lower numbers=Richer EQ Ratio=Higher numbers=Richer, so your PE is commanding 12.8 but the table units are in EQ. If the units were Lambda they would be commanding .87 (12.8)

[murhur]

Thanks for replying
I use the Wideband sensor that's hard wired up to the dyno to get my AFR figures.

The dyno also uses the OBD port to acquire information while the car is on the dyno so in turn I haven't got a scanner log as such.

Is there any particular information you're chasing from the scan? As the dyno logs a heap of info (MAP, TPS, Commanded Lambda, spark advance, actual afr, just to name afew)
I may be able to get print outs of what you need?

Failing that, I can make a log using the VCM Scanner and post it along with my layout file, but it won't have an AFR figure to match along the scan.

Let me know and I'll chase something up.

[andrew1988]

when we tuned my 2010 ve ss for the first time on a dyno with a 3 inch x-force system and a 1900 magnuson we put the wideband from the dyno in the outside right exhaust tip (out of the 4) and it read 17.0.1 all the way through a WOT pull. When we put it in the inside right exhaust tip it read spot on with the wideband we had in the o2 bung for the scanner. just a thought.

[BigDaddyCool]

Hi There,

I'm very new to this and only at the very beginning of my tuning career, so please forgive my dumbness, everything I've learnt has been through reading and trying to understand things myself

I recently bought HP tuners to tune cars myself as this really interests me and I am becoming increasingly untrusting of tuning shops from previous experiences

I had my car dyno tuned at the beginning of the year.
I have a Holden VE SS 2012, which is a 6.0L V8 AFM (afm has been disabled by tune)
It has a full 3" X-force exhaust (Headers right through) and a VCM OTR and makes 262kw according to the Dyno Sheet.

I recently put my car on another dyno and found that my car is running lean during WOT pulls (around the 13.5 AFR) which I don't think is correct, especially if my car is supposed to be "tuned"

From what I can see its commanding a 12.8 AFR(1.145 Lambda) in the PE Tables

So my understanding is that my VE tables are out, Would this be a correct assumption?

How would I go about correcting this?
I have access to a dyno whenever needed, so how would I go about using it to fix my problems?
And is there anything that anyone can see is wrong with my tune file?

Any suggestions are welcome, I'm here to learn

Thanks

2012 SS 6L.hpt

I would probably recommend just asking the tuner about it first. Unfortunately I haven't had any suceess with mafless on my 2009 ss.... I find it can be tuned correctly but when temps rise, the afr can become really erratic and no matter how many ways you try and control it, it just doesn't work.

I suspect Holden fitted these cars with a MAF as well for this very reason. Ultimately having both components = better.

MAP is slow. MAF is fast. Combined..... they work much better.

Your tune generally looks OK. If your that concerned, honestly just change the PE from 1.145 to 1.15 say....... it'll buy you that bit extra safety, probably wont kill off much power if any.

PS. Your VE may be correct, it may not be. I suspect most tuners just copy across VE tables they've made for other cars ......... do a dyno run, print out a sheet and call it a day.

[SultanHassanMasTuning]

no rpm or map boundaries changed?


do you have a log?

make sure you also see that maf is failed because in the tune DTC disabled to mil

[murhur]

I would probably recommend just asking the tuner about it first. Unfortunately I haven't had any suceess with mafless on my 2009 ss.... I find it can be tuned correctly but when temps rise, the afr can become really erratic and no matter how many ways you try and control it, it just doesn't work.

I suspect Holden fitted these cars with a MAF as well for this very reason. Ultimately having both components = better.

MAP is slow. MAF is fast. Combined..... they work much better.

Your tune generally looks OK. If your that concerned, honestly just change the PE from 1.145 to 1.15 say....... it'll buy you that bit extra safety, probably wont kill off much power if any.

PS. Your VE may be correct, it may not be. I suspect most tuners just copy across VE tables they've made for other cars ......... do a dyno run, print out a sheet and call it a day.

Is it worth getting the MAF re-installed? I understand that there in little/no difference in performance at the end of the day between maf/mafless, (I still have the original MAF sensor handy, but I'd need to get the fittings to connect the otr and throttle body to the maf).
If so, how do I get it to work again with this tune? are there any pros/cons in doing this?

does it even really matter that my Afr is bit lean?
i just don't want to prematurely damage the engine or anything like that
on the other hand, does this mean that there could there be some untapped power gains to be made?

[BigDaddyCool]

Is it worth getting the MAF re-installed? I understand that there in little/no difference in performance at the end of the day between maf/mafless, (I still have the original MAF sensor handy, but I'd need to get the fittings to connect the otr and throttle body to the maf).
If so, how do I get it to work again with this tune? are there any pros/cons in doing this?

does it even really matter that my Afr is bit lean?
i just don't want to prematurely damage the engine or anything like that
on the other hand, does this mean that there could there be some untapped power gains to be made?

If possible talk to the tuner first and see what they say......... if not, post a log.... so we can see what your talking about.

[murhur]

alrighty,
finally got the time to get the readouts from the dyno on some runs I did, I have attached them below

as you'll see, the commanded lambda vs actual vary throughout the rev range, I know you're never going to get them to match exactly, but I thought you could get closer

what do you reckon guys?

I haven't been able to talk the guys who done my tune yet, but when I get the chance I'll give them a buzz and let you know what they say.
afr.pdf
power1.pdf

I also took a quick drive and logged it on the scanner, please take a look
I've uploaded it along with my layout

layout1.Layout.xml
drive around town.hpl

[schpenxel]

Yeah, that dyno run looks pretty rough, but if you didn't get a WOT log with wideband data included then there's not much there to work with. I haven't looked at the log, does it have any WOT spots? WB connected?

[murhur]

It has acouple of wot spots, but they don't last for long. And it doesn't have a wb input on the log

I have a stand alone innovate LM-2 WB but no idea how to connect it up to the scanner.

[BigDaddyCool]

alrighty,
finally got the time to get the readouts from the dyno on some runs I did, I have attached them below

as you'll see, the commanded lambda vs actual vary throughout the rev range, I know you're never going to get them to match exactly, but I thought you could get closer

what do you reckon guys?

I haven't been able to talk the guys who done my tune yet, but when I get the chance I'll give them a buzz and let you know what they say.
afr.pdf
power1.pdf

I also took a quick drive and logged it on the scanner, please take a look
I've uploaded it along with my layout

layout1.Layout.xml
drive around town.hpl

Honestly that's really bad......... look at your short term fuel trims..........

[schpenxel]

Yeah, not a good looking log fueling wise.. Though I've certainly seen worse

Also I'd add knock retard to what you're logging so you can see if there is any knock...

[murhur]

rightyo then guys

good to see that I wasn't wrong in my suspicions,

i thought i had knock retard logged, but it might not have set it up properly, i'll check it out next time I can.

next step then, how would I go about fixing this?
just get the previous tuner to remedy the situation?

or am i better off doing it myself?
how would i go about this?

[schpenxel]

I'd do it myself personally but there's going to be a learning curve learning how to do it