Incredible amount of problems with tune

[cervan]

ive read just about every how to guide on this problem. Seeing as every table in hptuners is so convoluted im about to call it quits on hptuners and switch to efilive or rip out the entire system go over to motec/mspro. I hate to say something like that, but with no real time tuning and incredibly convoluted injector tables its frustrating and time consuming to adjust a value, flash and then guess if that was the correct way you needed to go.

Also, seeing as all of the former guides for 2.24 only sort of apply to 3.0 that makes it all the more frustrating to try and understand what the guides were conveying and then transferring that into 3.0

[matty b]

ive read just about every how to guide on this problem. Seeing as every table in hptuners is so convoluted im about to call it quits on hptuners and switch to efilive or rip out the entire system go over to motec/mspro. I hate to say something like that, but with no real time tuning and incredibly convoluted injector tables its frustrating and time consuming to adjust a value, flash and then guess if that was the correct way you needed to go.

Also, seeing as all of the former guides for 2.24 only sort of apply to 3.0 that makes it all the more frustrating to try and understand what the guides were conveying and then transferring that into 3.0

LOL you think Motec or MS3pro will be better? You think EFILive has "different" injector tables than HPTuners? :lmao: You are dealing with a Cheverolet derived system that is a bit more involved than a carburetor and when done right, runs better than any aftermarket standalone on Earth which will plug into an LSx.

Real time tuning is unnecessary. As the logs will be able calculate error and all you do is apply that error to the table. Maybe you should just outsource it to a tuner that knows what they are doing? Not everyone has the experience under their belt to tune EFI and maybe you're one of them. My Dad can tune a carb just like that, but defers to me if its EFI. Its not because he is incapable of getting a motor running right, its that he doesn't understand computers, efi or the efi tuning strategy well enough to do a good job.

The money you are planning on spending to buy a different system could easily be spent on a tuners time that gets it right. I will tell you this, tuning HPTuners files are magnitudes easier than both Motec and Megasquirt. If you cant figure this out, you wont figure out those two, guaranteed.

[cervan]

I wasnt implying that hptuners was any worse or better than the others, just that the others may be more user friendly. Seeing as what your saying is true ill put more effort forth into this setup.

What are the parameters for RAF tuning? I downloaded the idle-airflow.cfg for the scanner but its a 2.24 file and did not have the sensor parameters transferred over. Im assuming one is engine coolant temperature, with the same base idle airflow table columns. But the other would be idle airflow desired? Im assuming this would be calculated by the displacement of the engine at xxxx rpm = desired? or is what im looking for derived from another calculation?

[matty b]

Log engine temp, long term idle trim and short term idle trim. Make a user maths channel that is LTIT + STIT. Use the temperature axis and copy that into the X axis with collant temperature as the parameter. You then start the car up cold and let it idle up to temperature without touching the throttle. Add the trims to the Base running AF table values and try it again once the motor is cold again. IF you have an automatic, you have to do it in gear and in park/neutral. If you have a manual, doesn't matter, copy the same values into both tables. It may take a few tries and its a bit of a PITA as you want the motor very cold when you start so you typically get one or two chances per day to do it.

Regarding user friendliness, HPTuners has a much better forum than EFILive IMO and the editor is definitely easier to work through, but in the end, both use the exact same tables to make things work. Motec literally makes either of those look like a Commodore 64 vs IBM Watson in terms of complexity. I'd advise you to look at the tuning process for the M1 which is a plug n play for different vehicles, other than the multi thousand dollar cost, I will bet you a sizeable chunk of change you wouldn't be able to get a car idling properly with one let alone running properly at all load points. MS3 is actually a pretty cool setup, but its a budget solution for motors that dont have good factory EFI options and it too has a lot of similar tables as the GM pcm does.

[cervan]

i setup a new math channel, added both of the logging channels for stit and ltit i can see both of them showing numbers being put out in the channels but the graph table does not move or populate. ive tried all of the coolant temp sensors and alot of different user math parameters. here are the pictures and a save of my layout.

[matty b]

You gotta run the friggin motor. How can you tune idle if the motor is off? Im gonna hold off on making any sarcastic comments, but come on dude. Idle it for 5 minutes and have it come up to temp.

[cervan]

i realized that it was not populating the tables and was attempting to tell you that. so here is a log of it at full temp attempting to log the idle airflow through those tables. They are not populating. no numbers, the cells do not move or change in any way shape or form. And i knew that it was not working when the blue box was not following the temperature in the cells.

[matty b]

Shit my bad, you need to also log Engine>Idle>Idle Base Gear Airflow as well as Idle Base PN Airflow. Actually, log all the base airflow pids and Ill walk you through making a layout for you with that info.

Leave out any pids that dont have anything to do with the idle stuff. You want MAF, MAP, RPM, all the idle pids, coolant, ect. I add a timing pid and always have commanded AFR for wideband just to make sure fueling or spark isn;t causing issues. More or less, what is the stuff that makes the idle work? Log that stuff.

[cervan]

ok so i got my RAF parameters in correctly and its showing readings, however now im having an issue where the engine starts and idles pig rich below 10 AFR reguardless of what the ve table says. I have the VE table zeroed out all injectors minimum tables zeroed out and the engine still starts and idles at about the same rpm only pig rich.

Is there another table that im missing that is adding a shitload of fuel and supplying another ve table somewhere just for idle? im at a loss. i only noticed this after getting mad and zeroing out the primary ve table and it still started, meaning its essentially worthless until whatever timer decays. but what could it possibly be?

[cervan]

here is a log and a copy of my tune so you can see what ive done. this log shows what the engine ran on in the log.

[matty b]

Ok log a warm idle with the normal stuff and see where we are. RPM, Coolant, IAT, Commanded AFR, Map, ect. Lets see if we need to adjust your VE. I'd check if you can lean out idle by using the BiDirectional controls. Go into the Bidirectional area and lean out the commanded AFR and see if it follows, if you cannot, you may have an issue beyond the tune and its more common that you'd believe. I paid rent fixing mechanical or physical issues that were only made worse by the shop (typically) try to tune around it.

[cervan]

I can lean it out a tiny bit, but as soon as i start leaning it out it starts getting leaner and dies suddenly and will not restart unless i drop the afr control down to 14.7 again at which it pegs my afr gauge at 10. ill make another log in a second and post it up.

[cervan]

Attempting to adjust my idle with the afr bi-directional controls results in nothing until around 17:1 and then it goes from 10 to 10.5 and then at commanded 20 it reaches 11.5 and quickly dies and will not restart without lowering the commanded afr.

[matty b]

Unlike another guys issue, you may very well have a wideband problem or a voltage offset one going through the EGR. This is why I have a PRO MPVI to get rid of the backdoor issues that crop up. I'd stop and start figuring out if your offsets are correct between the WB controller and the PCM voltage readings.

[cervan]

ill double check the wideband but last i checked its right on the money. viewing between the gauge and what the log is reading its very close, within a tenth.

As for the engine fueling issue, it seems almost like the engine is in closed loop and trying to inject too much fuel. Like there is an afterstart enrichment decay table somewhere i havent found. Because as soon as i hit the throttle it dies due to going lean. but starting and idling without hitting the throttle it runs pig rich and idles with the ve table zeroed out.

[matty b]

I'll look again and see if I can find a fault, Im watching playoff hockey too so I may not be much of a help tonight.

ETA: are you able to read the WB controller AFR directly (a program outside of HPTuners)? In situations where the fueling at idle is off, I can literally close my eyes and use my ears and butt to know where its right while adjusting the commanded AFR with the biderectional controls. I threw away an LC1 wideband because it just wouldn't run right when I knew the motor was. You can hear when the idle tightens up, no weird misses and it "feels" right. There also could be an issue with where the wideband is. Is it in the tail pipe or right near the collector?

[cervan]

you might be right, and the wideband might just be reading wrong. because i feel the idle smooth out when i move the afr's up but i dont seem to see it on the wideband. I followed the installation instructions to install it 2 feet away from the collector of the turbo in the downpipe.

I do have the MPVI pro version of hptuners, but i wanted this to be run in closed loop so i installed it in the car, i guess i can run two wires from the wideband into the mpvi and double check it.

[matty b]

AHH man, if you have pro, hook it up that way. You have cause nothing but problems for yourself doing it through the EGR.

[cervan]

i havent hooked up the pro wideband i didnt have time today.

I still dont understand why if the ve table is zero where the engine is idling why the engine continues to inject fuel. it should be dead, zero none should not idle. i have no idea what table it is switching to. and until i get that answer i need to sit here and flash every 30 seconds changing one setting at a time to find out what table its switching to, or whats over riding it.

afterstart is zero, park neutral enrichment is zero ve table is zero pe doesnt enable until 2000 rpm's. its like its still in closed loop, or the maf hasnt failed somehow, even though the hertz are all at zero in the maf table?

[Asylumwarp]

Heres russ k's idle config. Pretty easy deal. Load it, run it. Hope that helps for idle tuning.