Mutha Thumpr Cam Problems

[GHuggins]

Ok, before I call the owner up I just wanted to get some other opinions. Haven't tuned a Ford in a while, so let me have it I guess

Owner installed a set of mutha thumpr comp cams #127020 with limiters, BBK twin 62mm tb, BBK longtubes and high flow cats, K&N CAI and exhaust then drove it without a tune to our shop (30miles all up hill)... It's got a few issues as it stands right now, but most importantly no throttle response and it's setting P0340 and P0344 - cam circuit and cam circuit intermittent cods for bank 1. All is electrically sound except I haven't verified solenoid control. Talked to comp, they said it was installed wrong. Possible since we've had to go over and retighten everything done... Verified with oil cap removed the sprocket isn't wobbling wile idling - didn't rev to look for walk though. I did set the DTC to no error just to see if it would idle any better or get it's throttle response back - it didn't - not sure if I set it back to OE - will check later...

Posting tune as it stand right now - base tune, nothing special - and posting factory OE.

Thanks for your inputs.

[Devildog1325]

I can't read you tune file right now but from my experience if there even one tooth out on one side it will pull a cam code when you log it what does your cam retard vs you cam angle error look like it should differ but slightly at idle there should be channels for bank 1 and 2 that you can log but it sounds like they were installed wrong

[Devildog1325]

Shouldnt*

[GHuggins]

So shouldn't have the throttle lag or cam codes being set? It acts like it's out of time - can't dial injection timing in, throttle very sluggish and so on. It's like the ecm isn't able to see it's control over the cam, so it's not trying to move them... I've been having problems with this new scanner logging anything correctly on this car, so I'll hook up the Verus tomorrow and see if I can control or see the cam counts.

Thanks for your help.

[Devildog1325]

The throttle lag is probably from the bigger throttle body if you have cam codes it's probably from the cams being out of time or they didn't hook the cam position sensor back up I doubt they even touched the vct solenoid that goes through the valve cover because there is no need to take them out to put cams in I just did an install last week and it would start up with the stock tune and no cam codes....it's more common for them to jump time if they took the timing chains completely off during install cause people never think to prime the oil because the tensioners work off oil pressure or they didn't properly wedge the chain if they installed it without replacing all the timing gear

[Devildog1325]

You also want to take your ivo(intake valve opening) data from the cam cards and put that in the general section under fuel in the tune to help with fueling issues

[jchambers]

Log the cam angles and see what it tells you in terms of the cam error. If this is a 2011-2014 car, you should also be aware that the original Comp Cams instructions for installing the limiters was wrong and will result in the types of cam codes you're seeing. The installer needs to be sure that they're using the second revision of the instructions which is dated something like April of 2012. Don't ask how I know this.

[GHuggins]

Owner never brought me the "actual" cam card - wish I had it, but I don't - instead got the info off of comps website for the generic info. Off of that I can see that the duration of this cam has the valve opening roughly 20 degrees sooner... Off of that I made the changes to the intake valve opening under the general fuel tab.

It's an 05 GT Mustang, so not a whole whole lot of data. At least not in HP's scanner I'll break out the Verus today and see what I can actually see...

It "acts" like it's out of time, but comp did say that the locks could be misadjusted and cause the same problems...

[ElecTech]

The last 05 I did had plenty of loggable PIDs for cam position and fuel trims, etc. What strategy is this car running? does it have an SCT/Diablo based file in it?

[Sweet35th]

Owner never brought me the "actual" cam card - wish I had it, but I don't - instead got the info off of comps website for the generic info. Off of that I can see that the duration of this cam has the valve opening roughly 20 degrees sooner... Off of that I made the changes to the intake valve opening under the general fuel tab.

It's an 05 GT Mustang, so not a whole whole lot of data. At least not in HP's scanner I'll break out the Verus today and see what I can actually see...

It "acts" like it's out of time, but comp did say that the locks could be misadjusted and cause the same problems...

It sounds exactly like it is out of time. Even 1/2 of a link will throw P0340 and P0344 (if both sides are off). I have seen people put the tensioner guides on the wrong side, this will allow slack enough to jump before the tensioners pump up. I have also just seen people mistakenly miss the timing mark on the crank with both timing chains.

Once the system throw P0340 and P0344 it typically disables all VCT operation, and all of your PID data for VCT will show up as 0. This includes VCTERROR and VCTERROR2

[GHuggins]

Well, no luck with the snap on verus today... Scanner was acting screwy so didn't even try to log my vct errors with HP. Do however know that these codes set the second you fire the motor up, so definitely something position related. Also talked to the installer again today only to find out he never pulled the engine front cover, just used the wedge tool to depress the tensioner (I know from experience this pushes the chain down as you tap it in and will allow the chain to rotate on the crank - also hope it didn't screw up the locks on the tensioner?)... Then he also didn't hold the chain up while unbolting the sprocket, just allowed it to "rest" while he swapped the cam out - so most likely can bet on it being out on the crank. I developed my own way of checking and setting timing on all of GM's inline engines to verify timing because of stuff like this - made the mistake or telling GM how I did it and it wasn't two week later they came out with bulletins describing the very same method to get out of having to pay tech's time for tearing the motors down - this was back in the Colorado valve seat problem, head swap days - Sorry GM techs SO basically I know all to well how easy it is to get these out of time doing it this way... Waiting to hear back from owner to see if he wants to tear it down or wants us to do it...

Any recommendations on cam timing once I get the problem fixed for these cams?

Thanks for everyone's help so far.

[Sweet35th]

Well, no luck with the snap on verus today... Scanner was acting screwy so didn't even try to log my vct errors with HP. Do however know that these codes set the second you fire the motor up, so definitely something position related. Also talked to the installer again today only to find out he never pulled the engine front cover, just used the wedge tool to depress the tensioner (I know from experience this pushes the chain down as you tap it in and will allow the chain to rotate on the crank - also hope it didn't screw up the locks on the tensioner?)... Then he also didn't hold the chain up while unbolting the sprocket, just allowed it to "rest" while he swapped the cam out - so most likely can bet on it being out on the crank. I developed my own way of checking and setting timing on all of GM's inline engines to verify timing because of stuff like this - made the mistake or telling GM how I did it and it wasn't two week later they came out with bulletins describing the very same method to get out of having to pay tech's time for tearing the motors down - this was back in the Colorado valve seat problem, head swap days - Sorry GM techs SO basically I know all to well how easy it is to get these out of time doing it this way... Waiting to hear back from owner to see if he wants to tear it down or wants us to do it...

Any recommendations on cam timing once I get the problem fixed for these cams?

Thanks for everyone's help so far.

The chain tensioners on that model of vehicle do not have locks on them. That was only the cost iron tensioners used in older model 4.6L/5.4L/6.8L. That vehicle will have plastic tensioners. I recommend replacing them when you (or whoever) pulls it apart, as they have a silicone seal on the back side of them that blows out and will allow a bleed off of oil pressure..

As far as cam timing. You are going to have to stay within the boundaries of what the cam phaser limiters that are installed allow. If they are the COMP ones, I believe it limits it to 20 degrees. Start with a conservative value at high load increasing up to around 6000rpm (or what ever your rpm break point is) With some of the bigger cams I have found they like 12 degrees up top, however this will change with the combination, so it is going to come down to you making trial and error testing. Some of these cams, the degree makes a big difference as one point in the power curve, and does nothing at other spots.

[AKDMB]

Here's an article on 3V cam tuning.

http://www.masterenginetuner.com/for...ng-fr500s.html

[Witt]

Looked at the tune compared to the stock one, when using limiters don't forget to change the test range for p0340 to whatever the new range is with the limiters. Its probably off a tooth from your description but I noticed that parameter wasn't changed.

[GHuggins]

Your right Witt, didn't change the test range... BUT got the engine tore down today - found driver's cam out 2 teeth "slipped one on crank apparently" and passenger cam out 1 tooth even though just by looking at it you would have thought the passenger side cam was out more... Owner doesn't want to do anything tensioner or guide wise - doesn't even want to pay for new gaskets or seals - and yes you can visibly see wear from where the tensioners are trying to push through the guides? SO..... May have to eat some labor just to cover our butts down the road on this one.....

Thanks for everyone's help on this.

[Sweet35th]

Your right Witt, didn't change the test range... BUT got the engine tore down today - found driver's cam out 2 teeth "slipped one on crank apparently" and passenger cam out 1 tooth even though just by looking at it you would have thought the passenger side cam was out more... Owner doesn't want to do anything tensioner or guide wise - doesn't even want to pay for new gaskets or seals - and yes you can visibly see wear from where the tensioners are trying to push through the guides? SO..... May have to eat some labor just to cover our butts down the road on this one.....

Thanks for everyone's help on this.

Not the first time I have seen this. Just an FYI if you suspect this in the future on another vehicle. If you do a bank to bank compression test and see a large discrepancy (like 25psi) then there is bank to bank cam timing issues. Even 1 tooth difference (like in your case 2 teeth off on one side and 1 on the other) would show up with a large compression difference.. The only time this test will not show the issue is if both cams are off the same number of gear teeth.

You found the problem. Provided he ok'd you to tear down and inspect, charge him for that labor. If he doesn't want to replace the worn/damaged parts then put it all in boxes and tell him to pick it up. Don't marry yourself to a vehicle that is assembled incorrectly. We all know no matter what when an engine fails, its the tuners fault .............

[GHuggins]

Went ahead and stuck in new tensioner guides and tensioners anyway... Didn't really care what the guy had to say. Seen too many of these fail, so wasn't going to risk it with my name associated to it I do still have one issue with it... Got it back on the dyno this afternoon - throttle response very nice and crisp now and making 20 more hp - it's at 350 to the tire at the moment. BUT always at 2200 rpms during a pull it has a bad torque dip in correspondence with a minor hp dip. Was really hoping in the beginning that this was tied to the cam timing... At the same time it goes rich and you can see the maf drop a g/s in airflow. I played with cam timing - nothing. Played with ignition timing - increase makes it worse. Played with imrc's, found if the runner controllers stay closed, it's almost - but not perfectly smooth through the trouble area - open imrc's and it's really bad. Thought about dd and possibly throttle closing - increasing didn't change anything. I've looked up some youtube videos with these cams and they all seem to not only be as bad, but most of the time are far worse having multiple dips like this one? I would think this is fixable. Any ideas as to what I should be looking at?

[Sweet35th]

Went ahead and stuck in new tensioner guides and tensioners anyway... Didn't really care what the guy had to say. Seen too many of these fail, so wasn't going to risk it with my name associated to it I do still have one issue with it... Got it back on the dyno this afternoon - throttle response very nice and crisp now and making 20 more hp - it's at 350 to the tire at the moment. BUT always at 2200 rpms during a pull it has a bad torque dip in correspondence with a minor hp dip. Was really hoping in the beginning that this was tied to the cam timing... At the same time it goes rich and you can see the maf drop a g/s in airflow. I played with cam timing - nothing. Played with ignition timing - increase makes it worse. Played with imrc's, found if the runner controllers stay closed, it's almost - but not perfectly smooth through the trouble area - open imrc's and it's really bad. Thought about dd and possibly throttle closing - increasing didn't change anything. I've looked up some youtube videos with these cams and they all seem to not only be as bad, but most of the time are far worse having multiple dips like this one? I would think this is fixable. Any ideas as to what I should be looking at?

Any time you contaminate the cylinder with excessive amounts of exhaust gasses (like you do with large camshafts), there is a potential for low RPM (low air speed) issues.. If you start the dyno pull at 2500rpm, does the concern not happen? Also try doing the pull in a lower gear at the low RPM to see if it occurs. It is very likely you are dealing with an issue with the size of the camshaft. See this a lot in aggressive profiles. The Ford Racing HotRod cams were notorious for this when driving to putt around at low RPM (below 2000rpm). People get it in their heads that big nasty aggressive cams make power.....Not always the case.

You said this car is making 350rwhp. I don't know the mods to it, but I can tell you by running the Comp NSR Stage 2 blower ground cam on cars with long tube headers, a good cold air intake they consistently make over 340rwhp with no drivability issues what so ever, and even out perform the HotRod cams over 6300rpm without the low end torque loss.

[GHuggins]

Thanks for the reply... Owner said that the car has always had this stumble. I know the 05's had some sort of design flaw that Ford was replacing motors for and this thing only has 23000 miles on it, so I was wondering if it didn't have this unforeseen problem or casting flaw? I know with all the Fords I've tuned in the past none of them had this issue and it would not tune out, so definitely something mechanical... It also started randomly misfiring - another problem these earlier year models had. Told him to replace the coils and plugs and let me know how it does. May be getting it back to do some more digging if it doesn't straighten out.

All this car is for him is something to fire up and let people see and listen to... It had to have the "cam lope" for this reason as I was told. Explained the drive ability problems that come with them and he didn't seem to mind - was happy with how it ran and performed other than the flutter at 2500 and the very intermittent random rpm misfire. Plugs that I pulled out didn't look good to only have 23000 miles on them - seen plugs do some really weird things on the Fords over the years, especially if they're the wrong heat ranges...

Thanks Again for all your help.

[Sweet35th]

Thanks for the reply... Owner said that the car has always had this stumble. I know the 05's had some sort of design flaw that Ford was replacing motors for and this thing only has 23000 miles on it, so I was wondering if it didn't have this unforeseen problem or casting flaw? I know with all the Fords I've tuned in the past none of them had this issue and it would not tune out, so definitely something mechanical... It also started randomly misfiring - another problem these earlier year models had. Told him to replace the coils and plugs and let me know how it does. May be getting it back to do some more digging if it doesn't straighten out.

All this car is for him is something to fire up and let people see and listen to... It had to have the "cam lope" for this reason as I was told. Explained the drive ability problems that come with them and he didn't seem to mind - was happy with how it ran and performed other than the flutter at 2500 and the very intermittent random rpm misfire. Plugs that I pulled out didn't look good to only have 23000 miles on them - seen plugs do some really weird things on the Fords over the years, especially if they're the wrong heat ranges...

Thanks Again for all your help.

Yes the early ones had spark plugs issues. Have him put in the updated plug design (not the small design plug from late 08 up, but the redesign for the 2 piece plug).

It is even possible that will the plugs that are in it the stumble at 2500rpm is related to the plugs. That's a lot of load down low in high gear on the dyno.