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Thread: How to Tune out Surging

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by scattergun9 View Post
    Any chance I can get a copy of that gt350 calibration for the throttlebody values?
    FHVJ127 - 2016 Mustang Shelby GT350.hpt

    This one?

  2. #62
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    Thanks much.

  3. #63
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    today i decided to try something different, I put all the torque tables back to stock and instead copied the tables over including the axis' for IMRC and VVT from the GT350 file to the GT file (this is for GT350 intake manifold applications) and there is almost no surging.

    the GT350 cam events obviously are matched up with the manifold and it works really almost perfectly. there is some fine tuning in a couple spots I will do with the torque tables but it's nowhere near as bad as it was with GT cam event criteria....this should really help those with the GT350 manifold.

  4. #64
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    You used the IVO and EVC mapped point VCT positions from the GT350 tune and copied that onto the GT tables?

  5. #65
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kris5597 View Post
    You used the IVO and EVC mapped point VCT positions from the GT350 tune and copied that onto the GT tables?
    I did. That worked well, but now I have moved on again, lol.

    Now I went back to a completely stock tune and changed only the bare minimum....GT350 TB data and changed a bit about the IMRCs. It actually doesn't run too bad like this, in fact there is almost no surging at all. A couple small tweaks to the torque tables and it will be perfect.

    I've found it runs MUCH better with stock intake manifold volume in the Transient tab also.

    I can get it to run smoothly about 5 different ways but I wanted to go back and find the simplest way and change the least amount of data possible.

  6. #66
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    That's great news. I am hoping to get my hands on a gt350 manifold in the future. Are you thinking that all of the surging is due to the new throttle body or a combination of the new manifold and throttle body?

  7. #67
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    I think its a combination of everything.

    The stock cam events are tuned to the stock intake manifold and also matched up to the runners opening and closing load/rpm values and the torque tables represent that as well.

    The GT350 TB data should cover the TB change so I am leaving that alone.

    The GT350 intake manifold theoretically flows more than the stock manifold apples to apples, IMRC closed or open for each respectively. Using the stock IMRC values seems to open the valves too soon and causes them to want to open and close and cause a surge feeling or a dead feeling lack of torque. I changed the values to something a little more like the GT350 values (ONLY the open and close loads for Best Economy and Drveability) but less extreme, logging how much load I use under normal acceleration in each gear where I would want the valves to stay closed for torque and response and how much decel load for them to close again without being in a state of opening/closing and surging.

    After that, the surging becomes just a slight inconsistent feeling in part throttle power delivery and should be massaged out in the torque tables.

  8. #68
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    Higgs is an absolute rockstar! Thanks to alot of help from him, I got my car with GT350 IM and TB dialed in last night just in time for the AutoX today:


    I still have some refining to do, but it's running pretty freaking good!

  9. #69
    Advanced Tuner AKDMB's Avatar
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    Where does the Engine Indicated Torque Reference value come from? Is this a good alternative to generate torque values for the guys without a dyno.

    Going back to drivability, and the process of tuning for a new throttle body...

    I'm still thinking at this point that for throttle body tuning the Predicted Throttle Angle table needs tuning. Effective Area shouldn't change for the most part (the axes change with the Predicted Throttle Angle table), I think this is hard data. Then I guess go back and tune driver demand if you don't like the throttle feel, and then go to the torque/torque inverse tables if nescessary.

    Which one is the correct approach? Tune Predicted Throttle Angle or not (like you did)?

  10. #70
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    Higgs, would it be possible for you to take your stock tune, copy and save as other and only modify to add the GT350 intake and 87mm throttle body info in so we all have a clear understanding of what needs to be changed to get this to work on our cars? Thanks for all that you have done on this forum btw!

  11. #71
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    Hi there

    Sorry for bumping an old thread but I have the GT 350 IM, 350 TB and 350 CAI setup which is Lund tuned. The car makes great power and is seeing 29-31 spark at WOT on pump gas, Octane 94 in UK. Car has no positive knock!

    My two biggest problems are drive ability and throttle touchiness:

    1. Cold start driving, the car is jumpy and very touchy on light throttle inputs, sometimes pulling of in 1st gear feels very on/off with light throttle and if I tried to accelerate with light throttle it feels jumpy / surgy, it just dampens the whole driving experience and I can't exactly sit letting the car warm up ten minutes every time before I drive it as it is my daily.
    2. Once fully warmed up the car drives pretty nice, but something that is still a little annoying is if I gently touch the throttle it seems to shock the drivetrain and I get the typical transmission thud these cars suffer from, if I stab the throttle a bit harder (press it further) this does not happen but then of course I get too much acceleration and it feels a bit unnatural.


    Even stock the car was ever so slightly touchy when cold, I believe they are all like this, but I could handle it and it was fine, but now on the 350 TB is it really touchy, jumpy, jerky whatever word you wanna use it is it, I have tried the stock TB and though it makes for a big improvement the throttle when cold is still really touchy on that very light initial input and in city traffic pressing the throttle more to cure it is not a solution as I will end up breaking speed limits, driving into cars in front of me etc. haha.

    Once warm things are much better though I still feel as if the throttle could be some what smoother and transition smoother, particular when initially applying light throttle inputs instead of shocking the drivetrain.

    Are you guys experience similar or have you got your tunes dialled in that your cars drive like stock cold and silky smooth when warm?

    Maybe I am expecting too much of this setup or maybe I need to keep on at Lund on resolving this, car makes superb power and is hugely quick, but I wish it drove smoother.

  12. #72
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    Did you copy over the Effective throttle area, an also Open loop FFta prediction table from the Shelby gt350