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Thread: How to Tune out Surging

  1. #1
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    How to Tune out Surging

    After installing the GT350 throttle body and intake manifold on my 2016 GT the car would surge and buck at part throttle.

    This could be tuned out by applying throttle error to the Predicted Throttle body table but that would always lead to a dead spot in the pedal.

    I kept thinking, if I use the data Ford says is the data for this TB then I should not have to change this information.

    I kept thinking, if the bucking is associated with IPC Wheel Torque Error then I need to look at 1. IPC and 2. Torque..... So I maxed out the IPC max table and zero'd out the IPC min table (at least for tuning purposes) and then created the posted Layout and Channel List. I logged Engine Indicated Torque Reference into tables that look like the Torque Calculation tables based on the active Mapped Point(s). You can see the criteria I used (over 25% weight per MP) and you can adjust it as you see fit. Then just copy and paste the logged values for each table into the corresponding Torque Calculation tables (and edit the Inverse tables using excel) and you will find the bucking and surging is gone and maybe it even drives better than stock.

    This should work well for all intake related modifications including roots blowers, etc.

    Have fun.

    Coyote Mapped Points.Channels.xml

    Coyote Mapped Points.Layout.xml

    Here is a modified version of the excel file I use to calculate Inverse....originally posted I think by txcharlie or murfie, I forgot.
    torqueCalculations.xlsx
    Last edited by Higgs Boson; 03-01-2016 at 08:31 PM.

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner AKDMB's Avatar
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    So you went back to the OEM Ford GT350 TB data and then started tuning the torque/torque inverse using this process? I guess you set the IPC Max/Min back to normal after you get done tuning the torque/torque inverse?

  3. #3
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AKDMB View Post
    So you went back to the OEM Ford GT350 TB data and then started tuning the torque/torque inverse using this process? I guess you set the IPC Max/Min back to normal after you get done tuning the torque/torque inverse?
    Correct, OEM GT350 TB data.

    IPC, maybe not back to normal but back to something sensible. Mine is still maxed out.

  4. #4
    this thread might have been my golden ticket. im having the same issues with my roush using OEM driver demand and such.

  5. #5
    So for my car I don't have tq reference. I do have scheduled torque, etc torque request. Which one should I use?

  6. #6
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegraystang View Post
    So for my car I don't have tq reference. I do have scheduled torque, etc torque request. Which one should I use?
    Search the word "indicated"

    If you get nothing then I will check and see what might read the same. You have an 11-14?

    Also, make sure you have the latest version of 3.0 and when you connect Scanner to car, click Vehicle --> Repoll Parameters
    Last edited by Higgs Boson; 03-02-2016 at 07:10 AM.

  7. #7
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    I have not messed with anything like this before, seems like really good information. I need to get a hold on a gt350 setup and try this.

    Kris

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    I like the way you think, Higgs!! Good stuff!!

  9. #9
    HPT Employee Eric@HPTuners's Avatar
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    Email support if you are missing tq reference and ill get it added
    Eric Brooks
    HP Tuners, LLC

  10. #10
    I just got mine installed recently so it's up to date. I'll repoll anyways. I'll check tomorrow or tonight and shoot you guys an email. And yes I have an 11-14.
    Last edited by thegraystang; 03-02-2016 at 09:11 PM.

  11. #11
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    send support your file so Eric can add Indicated Torque to your pid list

  12. #12
    by file you mean the tune file?

  13. #13
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    When I opened your Channels file, Indicated Torque was grayed out. After I updated, it was there and working.

  14. #14
    nevermind, new version. ill give this a go tonight and see. this surge has been the bane of my existence since i got this. this is all i need to figure out.
    Last edited by thegraystang; 03-02-2016 at 09:20 PM.

  15. #15
    So since I couldn't use this method last night I took advice from a friend. We turned off the torque module switch and oscillation. Just to test out if it was these table causing my surge. Went out. Still surged. I then loaded txcharlie etc error table for throttle angle and the errors were at very small. Decimals or 1 all over. No idea where to even look next.

  16. #16
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    Just so I have this straight and for clarification, the torque values in driver demand table are requesting load from the Y-axis of the torque inverse table. This tells the ECU what torque the driver wants and what load it needs to tell the engine to produce. The ecu then calculates the engines load(VE) and applies it to the y axis of the torque calculation tables to get the indicated engine torque. The ECU then compares the driver demand torque/load and the indicated engine torque/load and decides ether to open or close the TB to sync them.

    This would work the same for the throttle body model. Predicted throttle angle would be where the engine thinks the pedal is and effective area would be where the driver wants the throttle body to be. The ECU then compares and does its best to sync them. These are compared against vacuum and not load which is directly proportional to load. When load goes up vacuum increases. Opening the TB decreases vacuum to compensate for increased loads.

    That sheet was not mine. I have a pet peeve when a math formula uses a 0 and makes values that once had meaning all 0s. That sheets close but if I understand the inverse tables correctly I would change the 0 to a 3 under inverse OP. Possibly adding 1 or 2 to the rest of the values as well.

    Figuring out fords VE calculation would give a more accurate way to calculate inverse tables. This sheet is about as good as its going to get while still staying simple.
    Last edited by murfie; 03-03-2016 at 10:57 PM.

  17. #17
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    I also want to point out MP 15 is showing IPC wheel torque error not indicated engine torque. This MP is rarely used so it probably doesn't matter much but just to keep things straight. I like this method of dealing with MP weights.

  18. #18
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    It's a good idea to check them to make sure the criteria is what you want. You can use the layout to check wheel torque error, you can set it up to log spark values, etc. I probably missed 15 when I switched to ind tq since, as you noted, it's not really used anyways.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Higgs Boson View Post
    It's a good idea to check them to make sure the criteria is what you want. You can use the layout to check wheel torque error, you can set it up to log spark values, etc. I probably missed 15 when I switched to ind tq since, as you noted, it's not really used anyways.
    When you made your corrections, are your graphs smooth still? mine is not.

  20. #20
    Senior Tuner Higgs Boson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thegraystang View Post
    When you made your corrections, are your graphs smooth still? mine is not.
    No, it's just like correcting spark or airflow, smooth is up to you, it depends how long you logging session is, etc

    Even not smooth, you should notice a substantial difference. Just take note of the stock tables pattern, if your correction has numbers that don't make sense you might not have enough hits on that cell.