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Thread: Transient Fuel Stops Working above 3999rpm

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10_SS View Post
    and when your not fully floored, and riding in the hump at 100-130kpa, what happens?

    Yes I actually just got done re-tuning the VE table.

    Yes I increased the Manifold Volume to that of a ZL1. All of these settings dont change the fact that something strange with transients happens at 4000rpm and beyond.
    I never really ride in that 100-130 kpa range. The only time that happens is if you lug the car...and then yes it goes rich. Small trade off to deal with if you really want big transients. But the vast majority of the time with a PD blower it tramples through the 100-130 kpa range very fast. I know this is not an ideal way to do this. But it works. At least it worked for me.

    I wonder if the 4000 rpm transient shut off has to do with the MAF? I've kind of given up on my MAF tuning because I have so much better consistency and control with my SD/VE tune. And the MV volume seems to be working there for me. Everywhere...including above 4k RPM. Even without a hump in my VE table. In fact I removed this hump and now I'm just letting the transients do their work because I was getting such a huge transient fuel shot at times that I think I was causing some knock because I was too rich. The phenomena of "rich knock". Still don't know if this is a myth or real, but I know once I removed that hump in my VE table the transients tame down a bit and knock decreased.

    Anyway. Just throwing some observations and brainstorming here....
    2010 Camaro LS3
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  2. #122
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cc-rider View Post
    I never really ride in that 100-130 kpa range. The only time that happens is if you lug the car...and then yes it goes rich. Small trade off to deal with if you really want big transients. But the vast majority of the time with a PD blower it tramples through the 100-130 kpa range very fast. I know this is not an ideal way to do this. But it works. At least it worked for me.

    I wonder if the 4000 rpm transient shut off has to do with the MAF? I've kind of given up on my MAF tuning because I have so much better consistency and control with my SD/VE tune. And the MV volume seems to be working there for me. Everywhere...including above 4k RPM. Even without a hump in my VE table. In fact I removed this hump and now I'm just letting the transients do their work because I was getting such a huge transient fuel shot at times that I think I was causing some knock because I was too rich. The phenomena of "rich knock". Still don't know if this is a myth or real, but I know once I removed that hump in my VE table the transients tame down a bit and knock decreased.

    Anyway. Just throwing some observations and brainstorming here....
    I ride in the 100-130 kpa pretty often and not lugging since it's TPS related, not RPM.

    But yea, I know what your saying it may help WOT transitions but I do part throttle PE often as it's a street car.

    I think the dip in this range you were referring to was caused by the fuel pressure drop after this range, since FP drops, I have to compensate with a high VE table over 130kpa... so it makes it appear that it's lean in this area compared to a "normal" VE table.

    I know I really need to get a better fuel pump... I'm considering.

    I do see control using the VE tables since it has an RPM axis and the MAF doesnt, however, overall drivability is better using the MAF, idle is better, Tip out is better, etc. I know I could probably mess with Transients even more for SD mode, but I dont feel like it, plus I can never get Burst knock working properly in SD mode and everyone should have that working, who knows maybe cause I have rich tip in under 4k. I get knock at tip in without it even under 4000rpm where I have plenty of transient fuel.

    Have you even posted pics of your rich tip in over 4k RPM with a "normal" VE table? I just don't get it on mine.

    The way it sits now, it's fine, so far it's not too lean where tip in's causing a problem above 4k, but it's obvious below 4k and above 4k are two different things, and havent figured out how to adjust beyond 4k rpm.
    Last edited by 10_SS; 05-25-2016 at 03:23 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  3. #123
    10_ss

    I run Closed Loop Speed Density (Just to take advantage of the 02 sensors and maintain consistent idle year around)
    I know you guys have been working on this forever (years) I too have experienced all of the issues that you have brought up.
    My logs would always reflect from 0.32 to 0.40 seconds of fueling delay and most of the time cause KR to some degree. Basically worked on decay long enough to know I was not hurting motor.

    Fudged on VE table (hump), injectors, all the transient tables, PE, BE, throttle, both with LPE duel pumps and with squash system.
    Nothing has been a fix. I finally gave up, although I agree the KR is real but over time seemed to never hurt my engine.
    I run E85 and have been spraying 150-200 shot and fueling from the rail. I did set my nitrous controller to have an approx. 0.40 second delay before any nitrous ramp starts to keep from magnifying the problem. Long story short, I just moved on and accepted the NO FIX mentality. This does not help I know but I have ran setup to the max and found other issues of greater importance.
    I have kept up with these post forever but rarely reply. "Lurker"

    Appreciate all the hard work and time you have put into the issue
    2011 Camaro, 430cu Lsx, Mast Heads, Ported TVS 2300, ID 1300's, E85-Flex, Squash Fuel System, 250 Direct Port Nitrous, LPE Overdrive rear 10/14 Rib, Overdrive, 2.8" Upper, NW 102, 2" ARH, PATC built A6, Circle D Conv. etc. BMR 15" Wheel Conversion w/29/10.5W's/15 Hoosiers

    2007 H2 SUT, 427 LSX, T76 BB@16lbs 225 Trickflows, Vic JR Intake, Lt's, Dual return fuel sys, Comp 236-232-115, 4L80e, 3000 Vigilante, etc.

  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRTWRK View Post
    10_ss

    I run Closed Loop Speed Density (Just to take advantage of the 02 sensors and maintain consistent idle year around)
    I know you guys have been working on this forever (years) I too have experienced all of the issues that you have brought up.
    My logs would always reflect from 0.32 to 0.40 seconds of fueling delay and most of the time cause KR to some degree. Basically worked on decay long enough to know I was not hurting motor.

    Fudged on VE table (hump), injectors, all the transient tables, PE, BE, throttle, both with LPE duel pumps and with squash system.
    Nothing has been a fix. I finally gave up, although I agree the KR is real but over time seemed to never hurt my engine.
    I run E85 and have been spraying 150-200 shot and fueling from the rail. I did set my nitrous controller to have an approx. 0.40 second delay before any nitrous ramp starts to keep from magnifying the problem. Long story short, I just moved on and accepted the NO FIX mentality. This does not help I know but I have ran setup to the max and found other issues of greater importance.
    I have kept up with these post forever but rarely reply. "Lurker"

    Appreciate all the hard work and time you have put into the issue
    How much power is that 416 stroker putting down? Also, did you have the rear cylinder lean out problem? Actually pull the plugs to check? Just curious. The manifold volume will help you a lot if you haven't already played with it.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    How much power is that 416 stroker putting down? Also, did you have the rear cylinder lean out problem? Actually pull the plugs to check? Just curious. The manifold volume will help you a lot if you haven't already played with it.
    No lean issues really. Just found limits of aluminum block I think. 16-17 lbs boost and 200 shot starting pushing a little water, Nothing serious but decided to remove heads, install a substantially larger cam to reduce cylinder pressures and put custom age 625 studs. Found egg shaped cylinders and elongated lifter bores with lifters coming apart. Been down since last week of Feb. Should have well built LSx block with lots of goodies in a couple weeks. Callies magnum crank, Callies Ultra rods, Diamond coated pistons, block machined for piston squirters, Mast large bore LS7 ported heads, Del West type titanium intakes, Inconel Ex. etc. Crower shaft mount rockers, Isky needleless lifters. Next on list will be F1x.
    2011 Camaro, 430cu Lsx, Mast Heads, Ported TVS 2300, ID 1300's, E85-Flex, Squash Fuel System, 250 Direct Port Nitrous, LPE Overdrive rear 10/14 Rib, Overdrive, 2.8" Upper, NW 102, 2" ARH, PATC built A6, Circle D Conv. etc. BMR 15" Wheel Conversion w/29/10.5W's/15 Hoosiers

    2007 H2 SUT, 427 LSX, T76 BB@16lbs 225 Trickflows, Vic JR Intake, Lt's, Dual return fuel sys, Comp 236-232-115, 4L80e, 3000 Vigilante, etc.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by DRTWRK View Post
    No lean issues really. Just found limits of aluminum block I think. 16-17 lbs boost and 200 shot starting pushing a little water, Nothing serious but decided to remove heads, install a substantially larger cam to reduce cylinder pressures and put custom age 625 studs. Found egg shaped cylinders and elongated lifter bores with lifters coming apart. Been down since last week of Feb. Should have well built LSx block with lots of goodies in a couple weeks. Callies magnum crank, Callies Ultra rods, Diamond coated pistons, block machined for piston squirters, Mast large bore LS7 ported heads, Del West type titanium intakes, Inconel Ex. etc. Crower shaft mount rockers, Isky needleless lifters. Next on list will be F1x.
    Do you have any numbers before the nitrous shot was put into play?

    Hear ya on the limits thing - we originally had a 416 setup with the magnuson pushing 18psi peak with wiseco pistons - boy was that ever a mistake Lifted the heads even with the arp studs, blew a radiator, squished the pistons and bent the exhaust valves trying to go to a bigger cam "watch out on the bigger cam - make sure your exhaust isn't opening too early or your intake isn't closing too late" It was making over 900 to the tire on 93, but what good did that do?

    Still running the magnuson - only able to make 17.4ish to 18psi of boost - now have custom diamonds "friggin nice pistons and were able to design the quench area for better knock and flame propagation control", added a stud to the head and block "to turn it into an aluminum lsx", fire-ringed the heads, then went to a smaller cam - only made 850hp and 800tq to the tire, but reliable now... Hell it makes almost 600tq at 20some hundred Engine should be able to "easily" handle well over 1000 to the tire now - just need the airflow for it - Maggie's literally at it's limits...

    I was wondering on the fuel because our ZL1 is also using the squash fuel system with boost modulated regulator and because of the ZL1's fuel rails being used it was starving the 4 rear cylinders during tuning - had to bring the individual cylinder injector controls into play to get it straightened out - that's why I was wondering if you had checked the plugs for leaning out during tuning or anything... Using the same ID1300's as well, so was just curious.... It also did this with ID2000's and the regulator setup differently which is how I knew the rails were the most likely culprit...
    Last edited by GHuggins; 05-26-2016 at 08:42 PM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  7. #127
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Do you have any numbers before the nitrous shot was put into play?

    Hear ya on the limits thing - we originally had a 416 setup with the magnuson pushing 18psi peak with wiseco pistons - boy was that ever a mistake Lifted the heads even with the arp studs, blew a radiator, squished the pistons and bent the exhaust valves trying to go to a bigger cam "watch out on the bigger cam - make sure your exhaust isn't opening too early or your intake isn't closing too late" It was making over 900 to the tire on 93, but what good did that do?

    Still running the magnuson - only able to make 17.4ish to 18psi of boost - now have custom diamonds "friggin nice pistons and were able to design the quench area for better knock and flame propagation control", added a stud to the head and block "to turn it into an aluminum lsx", fire-ringed the heads, then went to a smaller cam - only made 850hp and 800tq to the tire, but reliable now... Hell it makes almost 600tq at 20some hundred Engine should be able to "easily" handle well over 1000 to the tire now - just need the airflow for it - Maggie's literally at it's limits...

    I was wondering on the fuel because our ZL1 is also using the squash fuel system with boost modulated regulator and because of the ZL1's fuel rails being used it was starving the 4 rear cylinders during tuning - had to bring the individual cylinder injector controls into play to get it straightened out - that's why I was wondering if you had checked the plugs for leaning out during tuning or anything... Using the same ID1300's as well, so was just curious.... It also did this with ID2000's and the regulator setup differently which is how I knew the rails were the most likely culprit...
    I broke a valve at 6200rpm on a 461ci BBC on a cam/piston setup that everyone said "will work fine" so I didn't check it. It lasted about 6mo of decent abuse. The valve went up into the port and created a valve sized hole in the coolant passage then all that water went across the intake and got sucked in by another cylinder, tried to compress it. Bent the rod, blew the cylinder out, bent the crank. It was pretty spectacular. When I coasted to a stop at an Amoco with a garage I pulled a valve cover to find one valve stem sticking WAY up and coolant pouring from my exhaust pipe.. guy says "Hey, need a jump?".. lol

    Do yea do whatever it takes to check the clearance, I didnt. All of the pistons had clean spots where the Intake valve were tapping them.

    But yea DRTWRK that does help because I was 90% convinced it's software limit and not mechanical... so that helps put wonderment to rest.
    Last edited by 10_SS; 05-26-2016 at 09:05 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  8. #128
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    I didn't have lean tip-in above 4000, but I play with injection timing and manifold volume combined "all though I don't fine tune manifold volume as much as I should" - at least I don't think I had lean tip ins - O2's and wideband alike didn't give clues to one? Think I posted the LS3 logs in here somewhere that were showing this? I don't remember anymore.... I know it's not "necessarily" a pump or injector or a fuel pressure issue - BUT can be if that makes sense I mean our 416 that I was talking about that was leaning out the rear cylinders was running on nearly 80psi in boost - or should have been with the boost referenced regulator and still was starving the rear 4 - rails just couldn't flow enough...

    My recommendation if you've got the ability to do so is use a "like" solid lifter and clay and measure valve clearance thoroughly Also why I no longer design cams with a lot of duration and lift in "certain" motors
    Last edited by GHuggins; 05-26-2016 at 09:36 PM.
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  9. #129
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    I didn't have lean tip-in above 4000, but I play with injection timing and manifold volume combined "all though I don't fine tune manifold volume as much as I should" - at least I don't think I had lean tip ins - O2's and wideband alike didn't give clues to one? Think I posted the LS3 logs in here somewhere that were showing this? I don't remember anymore.... I know it's not "necessarily" a pump or injector or a fuel pressure issue - BUT can be if that makes sense I mean our 416 that I was talking about that was leaning out the rear cylinders was running on nearly 80psi in boost - or should have been with the boost referenced regulator and still was starving the rear 4 - rails just couldn't flow enough...

    My recommendation if you've got the ability to do so is use a "like" solid lifter and clay and measure valve clearance thoroughly Also why I no longer design cams with a lot of duration and lift in "certain" motors
    yes I liked the logs you posted, I looked at them closely. I think we all can "make it work" but I think what we will all find if you really look is you can richen up your Tip In as much as you want below 3999rpm, then above that it's just "ok". Throw the fast WB in there and you may see it's just a bit lean, like mine. Once you sit down and decide to richen up tip in above 4000rpm I think everybody with these ECU's, or at least certain OS's will find that you sinply cant. Changes will happen below 3999rpm, but wont carry over above.

    I used simple playdoh for the pistons... but yes it's just a huge extra step you dont want to do... full torque... new head gaskets, etc.. But it's worth it. I had my pistons milled a bit to work on 461ci BBC v2, and that things been runnign great how for 15yrs, NA. In my buddies 68 Camaro. Perfect home
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    Do you have any numbers before the nitrous shot was put into play?

    Hear ya on the limits thing - we originally had a 416 setup with the magnuson pushing 18psi peak with wiseco pistons - boy was that ever a mistake Lifted the heads even with the arp studs, blew a radiator, squished the pistons and bent the exhaust valves trying to go to a bigger cam "watch out on the bigger cam - make sure your exhaust isn't opening too early or your intake isn't closing too late" It was making over 900 to the tire on 93, but what good did that do?

    Still running the magnuson - only able to make 17.4ish to 18psi of boost - now have custom diamonds "friggin nice pistons and were able to design the quench area for better knock and flame propagation control", added a stud to the head and block "to turn it into an aluminum lsx", fire-ringed the heads, then went to a smaller cam - only made 850hp and 800tq to the tire, but reliable now... Hell it makes almost 600tq at 20some hundred Engine should be able to "easily" handle well over 1000 to the tire now - just need the airflow for it - Maggie's literally at it's limits...

    I was wondering on the fuel because our ZL1 is also using the squash fuel system with boost modulated regulator and because of the ZL1's fuel rails being used it was starving the 4 rear cylinders during tuning - had to bring the individual cylinder injector controls into play to get it straightened out - that's why I was wondering if you had checked the plugs for leaning out during tuning or anything... Using the same ID1300's as well, so was just curious.... It also did this with ID2000's and the regulator setup differently which is how I knew the rails were the most likely culprit...
    Previous cam on my 416 was relatively small 227-239-114, 623 ish lift. It was a Mast built 416, dished pistons , Mast medium bore heads . Motor was ran hard for 20,000 plus miles. Very happy with how well it held up. Plugs and pistons looked good and I don't think I had any tuning issues, Just astronomical cylinder pressures. Pushed a little water when spraying only.
    21st Century Muscle cars here in the Dallas area did/does all my work and performed the build when car was new and had maybe just a few hundred miles on the speedo. Setup had its share of gremlins as all do when pushed past limits but ultimately the most satisfying ride I ever had. I'm old and have had many.

    Whenever car moved I was always logging as I went to the custom OS just after it was first built. This was when I first became aware of the lean transition when entering boost. The Maggie was very much overspun and no physical way to spin it any faster with every cooling mod know. Car is setup for 1/8 mile Mexico stuff for fun, Maggie loved the nitrous and E85. I just could never leave well enough alone. Car held its own and hurt many feelings competing against much lighter cars that were supposed to be faster. I constantly tweaked and tested on streets of my choice and anyone thinking its easy to get these heavy ass cars to move on the street with the torque this combination makes don't have a clue. Tuning two power adders has its challenges. Most would say it was a nightmare but I found it fun as I made a hobby of it. Between the boost, E85, trans shift points, nitrous controller triggers, delays, ramps and cut offs, constantly increasing the shot, Tuning was never ending. A prepped track probably would not pose much of a problem but streets are a whole new ball game.

    New motor (429 Cubed) Flat top pistons, is also being built by Mast but with many custom specked components. Cam is a custom spec from Patrick G and will be in the 24X-25X-115+X neighborhood with substantially more lift than is typically accepted with stock valve train components. (I didn't say exact specs as I don't know if it is appropriate) I'm sure Mast will take care of the piston/valve clearances and build another strong bullet to unleash.
    Last edited by DRTWRK; 05-27-2016 at 02:21 AM.
    2011 Camaro, 430cu Lsx, Mast Heads, Ported TVS 2300, ID 1300's, E85-Flex, Squash Fuel System, 250 Direct Port Nitrous, LPE Overdrive rear 10/14 Rib, Overdrive, 2.8" Upper, NW 102, 2" ARH, PATC built A6, Circle D Conv. etc. BMR 15" Wheel Conversion w/29/10.5W's/15 Hoosiers

    2007 H2 SUT, 427 LSX, T76 BB@16lbs 225 Trickflows, Vic JR Intake, Lt's, Dual return fuel sys, Comp 236-232-115, 4L80e, 3000 Vigilante, etc.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by 10_SS View Post
    yes I liked the logs you posted, I looked at them closely. I think we all can "make it work" but I think what we will all find if you really look is you can richen up your Tip In as much as you want below 3999rpm, then above that it's just "ok". Throw the fast WB in there and you may see it's just a bit lean, like mine. Once you sit down and decide to richen up tip in above 4000rpm I think everybody with these ECU's, or at least certain OS's will find that you sinply cant. Changes will happen below 3999rpm, but wont carry over above.

    I used simple playdoh for the pistons... but yes it's just a huge extra step you dont want to do... full torque... new head gaskets, etc.. But it's worth it. I had my pistons milled a bit to work on 461ci BBC v2, and that things been runnign great how for 15yrs, NA. In my buddies 68 Camaro. Perfect home
    Even with your slower wideband, you were still showing very lean areas though? I do plan on getting one of the AEM's - if for nothing else than to have one for comparison and quicker readouts... I know injection timing and manifold volume will both greatly help above 4000 rpms... If the heads or injector spray patterns haven't been altered then no one should ever need to touch the transient tables themselves - after much experimenting with them I have found more issues with altering these to something different than the OE cals - I'm pretty sure ALL of the transient tables must be altered instead of just one set for them to "jive" or function correctly...

    Previous cam on my 416 was relatively small 227-239-114, 623 ish lift. It was a Mast built 416, dished pistons , Mast medium bore heads . Motor was ran hard for 20,000 plus miles. Very happy with how well it held up. Plugs and pistons looked good and I don't think I had any tuning issues, Just astronomical cylinder pressures. Pushed a little water when spraying only.
    21st Century Muscle cars here in the Dallas area did/does all my work and performed the build when car was new and had maybe just a few hundred miles on the speedo. Setup had its share of gremlins as all do when pushed past limits but ultimately the most satisfying ride I ever had. I'm old and have had many.

    Whenever car moved I was always logging as I went to the custom OS just after it was first built. This was when I first became aware of the lean transition when entering boost. The Maggie was very much overspun and no physical way to spin it any faster with every cooling mod know. Car is setup for 1/8 mile Mexico stuff for fun, Maggie loved the nitrous and E85. I just could never leave well enough alone. Car held its own and hurt many feelings competing against much lighter cars that were supposed to be faster. I constantly tweaked and tested on streets of my choice and anyone thinking its easy to get these heavy ass cars to move on the street with the torque this combination makes don't have a clue. Tuning two power adders has its challenges. Most would say it was a nightmare but I found it fun as I made a hobby of it. Between the boost, E85, trans shift points, nitrous controller triggers, delays, ramps and cut offs, constantly increasing the shot, Tuning was never ending. A prepped track probably would not pose much of a problem but streets are a whole new ball game.

    New motor (429 Cubed) Flat top pistons, is also being built by Mast but with many custom specked components. Cam is a custom spec from Patrick G and will be in the 24X-25X-115+X neighborhood with substantially more lift than is typically accepted with stock valve train components. (I didn't say exact specs as I don't know if it is appropriate) I'm sure Mast will take care of the piston/valve clearances and build another strong bullet to unleash.
    Yes, they don't I will say for comparison sake from the vehicles I've tuned - a whipple will make more hp, but a magnuson will make 100+ more tq - especially down low AND that can and will cause traction issues very quickly even with very light throttle while cruising for instance... I had one break loose and spin out just because it started pouring rain on me - literally reached down to turn the wipers on and the ass end spun around - was logging fuel economy of all things pulling a slight grade running about 1200 to 1400 rpms in fifth gear - torques a beast

    Our magnuson is "technically" at "it's" limits, but if we weren't worried about over-spinning it, we could possibly get 19 to 20 psi out of it? BUT not going to risk it - as they won't stand behind their warranties all that well.....

    Patrick knows his stuff with cams, but I will say the one that bent the exhaust valves was very close to that - set to a 115 centerline - with exhaust duration in the 250's at .050 - that's 310 or so at .006 - make sure you advance that baby to whatever Patrick wanted - I assume 112 to 110 or less... You will possibly have issues with tuning - just because of injection events required - especially if your going to be running boost AND a lot of your burn will be going straight out the exhaust, but should make some pretty good wot power especially with those cubes...

    I wish you had some numbers for your 416 - would have been nice for comparison sake
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
    Remote Tuning Available at gh[email protected]
    Mobile Tuning Available for North Georgia and WNC

  12. #132
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    No question the AEM 30-0300 is an accurate tuner.. it will get your corrections more accurately than the NGK, simply because it's a faster WB. No 4th gear pulls on a dyno needed. This thing just re-wrote my last 2yrs messing around with the NGK with 2nd gear pulls, anyway tell me my logs arent good. LOL

    Now. Transients. Lets argue this all day long. Same damn crap I argued about the Baro reset on the LT1 most said it was tuning then everybody just loved the fix and some actually tried to call it their own... lol. Sorry about that. You know who you are.

    Two WOT shifts below 4000rpm nice little tunable and rich tip in..
    Transients below 4000rpm.PNG


    shortly after, one shift below 4000, 2nd shift above 4000. Lean on shift above 4000rpm.
    Transients below aboverpm.PNG


    It's a damn thing, and people saying it's not doesn't not really encourage HPT to look into it. and just because EFI Live doesn't have a table for it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Same thing I fought with LT1_Edit and Tunercats but at least more than two people finally agreed and they spend some engineering time and fixed it and now this 2bar OS has this built in. Go Figure.
    Last edited by 10_SS; 05-28-2016 at 10:23 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  13. #133
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Re-inserting the SAME PIC from the VERY FIRST POST.

    It's nice to know we all cant fix this, and we all have our own ways to compensate for the problem, but would it be great to fix it???

    NO TIP IN AFTER 4000RPM. KEEP THE FOCUS


    2016 5-28 Triansitents Refresher.PNG
    Last edited by 10_SS; 05-28-2016 at 10:35 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  14. #134
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    I will say this - it would be nice if hpt would fix the baro update in a way that doesn't require the OS upgrade, especially since they "aren't" supposed to be supporting the OS upgrades anymore - I and others have requested this, but as you stated there's not enough request...

    It would also be nice if there was some way to get transients above 4000 rpms - may be rooted or "hard coded" to the original MAF settings as previously discussed... Don't know if there is a way to re-code it? I do know that through injection timing and manifold volume you can all but eliminate it - is it a fix - NO - requires a LOT of playing and still "as you have said" doesn't get rid of 100% of it... Your last log posting from the "first" post doesn't appear to have the issue fixed - looks as though timing was killed to make fueling richer? May just be the way I'm looking at it?

    Curious, what was your fix for the baro update, before they added it into the OS patches?
    2010 Vette Stock Bottom LS3 - LS2 APS Twin Turbo Kit, Trick Flow Heads and Custom Cam - 12psi - 714rwhp and 820rwtq / 100hp Nitrous Shot starting at 3000 rpms - 948rwhp and 1044rwtq still on 93
    2011 Vette Cam Only Internal Mod in stock LS3 -- YSI @ 18psi - 811rwhp on 93 / 926rwhp on E60 & 1008rwhp with a 50 shot of nitrous all through a 6L80

    ~Greg Huggins~
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  15. #135
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GHuggins View Post
    I will say this - it would be nice if hpt would fix the baro update in a way that doesn't require the OS upgrade, especially since they "aren't" supposed to be supporting the OS upgrades anymore - I and others have requested this, but as you stated there's not enough request...

    It would also be nice if there was some way to get transients above 4000 rpms - may be rooted or "hard coded" to the original MAF settings as previously discussed... Don't know if there is a way to re-code it? I do know that through injection timing and manifold volume you can all but eliminate it - is it a fix - NO - requires a LOT of playing and still "as you have said" doesn't get rid of 100% of it... Your last log posting from the "first" post doesn't appear to have the issue fixed - looks as though timing was killed to make fueling richer? May just be the way I'm looking at it?

    Curious, what was your fix for the baro update, before they added it into the OS patches?
    any "baro update" fix I run came from the 2bar custom OS update. Still disappointing that i'm still basically tuning like 1996 (limited to a transient cutoff at 4000rpm) so close. Seems like there will always something you have no control over, but this is pretty clear cut.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  16. #136
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    Well I'm with you brother. I'd love to see HPT get on this. If there is a petition...put my name on it.

  17. #137
    I just read/skimmed these 7 pages. I didn't see it, but have missed it. And maybe its too obvious to mention... But

    Those reporting no transients above 4000 rpm, have you increased the Value in [ECM3003] -Dynamic Airflow High RPM Disable to a value of 8192 for example?

    Transients use Dynamic Airflow as far as I know, which stops after 4000 rpm in most calibrations.

  18. #138
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    yes I lowered it, I also commented on that value how it seemed to match the 4000rpm cutoff. Mine has been set to 1900rpm for awhile.

    Here's some logs of mine, just did this today. There is a clear difference under and over 4000rpm.

    Threw in my charts file maybe will help you see the AEM wideband fast response.

    Camaro.Charts.xml

    129b Transients WOT 2.hpl
    129b Transients WOT 3.hpl
    129b Transients WOT 4.hpl
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires

  19. #139
    Senior Tuner 10_SS's Avatar
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    Still trying to figure this out.. .now I see it show up as cut injector pulse when playing with the bench setup and most or all fueling tables set to either 1 or 1000 everywhere (so no change in fuel).

    Injector PW gets cut from 8.5ms to 2.9ms, only thing changing is the rpm from 3999 to 4000 (or 4001rpm). It starts to climb back slow (relitively slow) to 8.5ms when RPM crosses 3900rpm.

    Wish someone could figure this out! Tune and log attached. Tune is a bench tune, most fueling and spark tables set to constant values to narrow things down.

    this is for my transients that just stop working above 4000rpm.. I'm convinced it's a problem at least with my tune or OS. I have looked at other peoples logs and they don't seem to have a problem.

    Flexfuel 2 4000rpm Injector PW Cut - Steady State.hpl
    Flexfuel 2 4000rpm Injector PW Cut.hpt
    4000rpm Inj Pulse Cut.PNG
    Last edited by 10_SS; 08-22-2017 at 11:09 PM.
    2010 Camaro LS3 (E38 ECU - Spark only). MS3X running complete RTT fuel control (wideband).
    Whipple 2.9L, 3.875" Pulley, kit injectors, supplied MSD Boost-A-Pump, stock pump
    LG Motorsports 1 7/8" Headers - No Cats, stock mid pipe with JBA Axle Back
    ZL1 Wheels/Tires