I know that. Use common sense with the config. Change it how it suits your needs. Again, it's a tool. If I give you a hammer I can't point out everything you should hit with it.Originally Posted by thegraystang
I know that. Use common sense with the config. Change it how it suits your needs. Again, it's a tool. If I give you a hammer I can't point out everything you should hit with it.
For the EcoBoost engines, is it feasible to re-scale the load axis (Y-axis) on the torque tables to increase boost? For example, the EcoBoost 3.5L V6 in stock form produces about 11 psi at the TIP with airload around 1.3-1.4, and the scheduled torque is about 350-400 ft-lb. Looking at the stock torque and inverse torque tables, that's about right. I was told that the torque tables are nothing more than look up tables. However, someone said an aftermarket F-150 EcoBoost tune had reduced the torque values (which rescales the load and essentially calls for more load at the same torque). It seems easier to just increase the load numbers above 1.00 for the EcoBoost. For example, instead of 400 ft-lb at 1.4 load, make that 1.7 load and do the necessary changes to torque inverse tables.
Would this allow me to request airload of 1.7 with the same given scheduled torque, and resulting in increased boost/airflow and actual power?
I agree.
I tried it out, and was able to increase boost and airflow, but not by much. It'd rise up to about 15-16 psi and then drop down towards stock 10-11 psi before 6200 RPM. Airflow increased from 38 lb/min to 41 lb/min. I tried upping the load slightly more and got the ETC failure mode with the wrench icon. But the more I thought about it, the more it didn't seem right. Until they unlock more tables for the SHO, I don't believe it is tunable as-is.
Last edited by metroplex; 06-27-2016 at 07:39 AM.
The driver demand tables, as of VCM 3.20.18, doesn't do anything for the SHO. Reading the other EcoBoost owners trying to use HPTuners to tune, they get the same results trying to tweak driver demand. The only people getting any kind of results are using SCT or paying for a tune from a vendor. I understand why I got the wrench icon, but I had to try out the torque/inverse torque tables to see if I could do anything. Basically I was commanding too high of a load at one point which triggered the wrench icon / ETC FMEM. If I kept it lower, like 1.7 load at about 350-400 ft-lb, I was able to get some results but not the results I wanted. I always populate the inverse torque tables with the correct math, but like we have found, tweaking it isn't the right way to go.
From what I have gathered from folks using SCT PRP, the driver demand table needs to be modified leaving the torque/inverse torque tables alone. Some seem to tweak the WGDC tables, but I've never had to touch WGDC on my GM LNF tune because the ECU takes care of that to maintain the desired torque/boost. I figure it is the same way with EcoBoost. The problem is gaining access to the tables in HPTuners to allow the changing of desired/scheduled torque. I've read about the flowchart for how EcoBoost works, the problem starts with desired torque and the ability to change it.
HPTuners as of 3.20.18 is still missing additional tables. We can't really do anything - or the people that did find a way with HPTuners are keeping hush hush or they are working on vehicles that have enough tables unlocked. For the SHO, the scheduled torque remains stock (350-400 ft-lb) and the desired TIP won't go above 60 inHg and hovers around stock 50-55 inHg regardless of what I do. Like I mentioned before, the fact I can't even raise the WOT shift points for my SHO is a testament that it needs more tables unlocked. Some EcoBoost files have more of the tables unlocked, especially 2015-up F-150 and Mustang. They have extra tables like Desired TIP, WOT torque, clip inverse torque etc... that are not found on the SUV/car EcoBoost files. You can download the files from the repository and see for yourself.
From your comments, it sounds like you might not have used HPTuners to tune your EcoBoost. I use SCT's Pro Racer Package for my other Fords, and even on that forum it seems a lot of people still have issues with missing tables/settings but more people have had success with SCT overall. You might ask why I didn't go with SCT for my SHO? It's because they want $100 for the license and $400 for the X4 device even though I already have the Pro Racer Package. It's like $100 for HPTuners Ford credits to tune 1 vehicle, big difference, and I'm not in a big rush. The good news is that HPTuners is working on an EcoBoost update, but I haven't heard when it will be ready.
Last edited by metroplex; 06-27-2016 at 07:39 AM.
I am in the process of adding things to all ecoboost vehicles.
Eric Brooks
HP Tuners, LLC
The $400 X4 is the biggest drawback. I've already bought 2 of their X-Cal 2 units for other vehicles and not thrilled about spending $400 on another device.
I'll have to find the strategy/catchcode.
I can wait. I just don't want to spend $400 on a new tuner device. I have a stack of them for the cars I've been tuning with SCT Pro Racer Package.
If HPT turns out to be a solid no-go for EcoBoost tuning, I have plenty of options, like a different vehicle altogether, preferably one with a V8 engine.
Last edited by metroplex; 06-27-2016 at 02:19 PM.
If you must know, I bought the Pro Racer Package 13 years ago and started with the 9100 blue tuner (I was forced to exchange that for a X-Cal 2). The HPT was purchased about 3 years ago because I had to tune my GM LNF engine, and I stumbled across the fact HPT started making it compatible with Fords several years ago. I soon discovered it was much faster and easier to work with than SCT Advantage/LiveLink. The SHO is just a curiosity project. And to be honest, I'm not entirely satisfied with the SHO at all. The build quality is bottom of the barrel in terms of Fords: roof trim cracking and bending, fender/hood misalignment, trunk misalignment, brake booster losing vacuum after a day, SYNC/HVAC going crazy intermittently, battery draining, car seat memory changing on its own, etc...
While the EcoBoost is a nice engine, the PTU has been reported to overheat by several people (it's also used on the Flex/Edge/Explorer AWD) and I'm not sure the 6F55 is as durable as the 6R80 in the Mustang or F-150. Sure, I read numerous articles about people pushing 500-600 whp out of their SHOs, but who knows when the PTU or 6F55 will grenade. I've heard the same story about the AOD/AODE, 4R70W, 5R55S, over the past 20 years about how they can take abuse. Also, the V6 just doesn't sound or feel as good as a V8 engine. The best you can do with the exhaust is make the EcoBoost V6 sound like a ricer engine with maybe some turbo sounds.
Again, the wrench icon only appeared when I increased the desired load a little too much. When I incrementally increased it to 1.7 at the max stock desired torque (about 350 ft-lb), it ran fine. I recognize it isn't the proper way to tune it, but I've scoured the calibration file for the past 5-6 months and can't find the tables to change. The lack of online communities/resources to assist in EcoBoost and Ford Speed Density tuning doesn't help either. Yet, there's no shortage of tuned EcoBoost owners saying they have the secret but aren't willing to share straightforward knowledge on what needs to be done - just a lot of obscure hints and nuggets.
No worries, I never asked you. Apparently, it's quite common among the Ford tuning community for everything to be kept close hold as I've experienced for over a decade. Bowties are almost the complete opposite.
I'm in the same boat metroplex. Currently tuning a 2015 SHO. I have managed to raise everything except desired torque. This car has been converted to a big single turbo per the owner's request. Been tuning on it for a year and now we're stuck. Finally got the Desired TIP to come up, but it closes the throttle as soon as measured TQ goes over Desired Torque. The desired torque on this car at any amount of throttle on the dyno hits a hard stop at 350 ft/lbs. Did you hear anything about missing tables? I have gone through and changed everything that would limit torque without success. As soon as this barrier is broken, the car will be done.
I run into the same limit of 350 ft-lb. I'm sure there are tables that control this scheduled/desired torque. There's also a table for Pressure Ratio vs RPM that's not found in the SHO files, as are the Expected TIP, axle and PTU torque limit tables. So far there aren't any ETAs from HPTuners on the EcoBoost updates.
I'm starting to think the 350 ft-lb limit is the transmission torque management tables that are missing. I've loaded loaded the stock files up in Chipmaster revolution and also in SCTflash. I sent some details to tech support, hopefully they have the information they need to add the tables. I raised expected TIP successfully on my tune, I'm only limited by the throttle body closing at this point. As soon as Engine TQ raises above the desired 350, the throttle closes. Expected and actual TIP are set perfectly for the big single turbo on this car. I spent a lot of time making the expected TIP match the boost curve of this turbo. I was thinking if it wasn't exact I may have been hitting a limiter. Here is a screenshot example of the TIP table in my 2015 SHO tune, it isn't the exact table I'm using, but it is there. These are set at a solid 18 across the board because I'm testing with an aftermarket boost controller. TIP pressure does exactly what these tables say.
tiptables.png
In this next picture, you can see my graph of the desired TQ. The light blue is desired, and the dark blue is actual. The little blip of dark blue over the light blue is causing the throttle to slam closed to regulate torque output. The computer reacts SUPER fast to regulate the TQ output.
desiredtqdata.png
Last edited by Nissmotion; 07-01-2016 at 09:11 AM. Reason: Picture sizes
I log 4 different torque measurements:
Engine Brake Torque
Scheduled Torque
Desired Brake Torque
ETC Brake Torque Request
The engine brake torque fluctuates whenever the throttle plate closes, and never seems to go over 327 ft-lb. Scheduled Torque has gone to 410-420 ft-lb. The Desired Brake Torque and ETC Brake Torque Request essentially follow on another, they are the same and peak out at 350 ft-lb.
If I set WOT Start and End values (below the 816-840 AD counts), then the throttle plate angle can be commanded to stay fully open when I am WOT. However, the same torque limit of 350 ft-lb stays. Engine Brake Torque is higher, gets closer to 400 ft-lb, but the other 3 are the same. Even if I manipulate the torque tables to get an airload of 1.7-1.8 at WOT (and see higher boost values), the boost values eventually drop back down to stock even with the throttle plate fully open. The airflow doesn't necessarily increase either. After looking at the EcoBoost logic (or what others have described), the torque tables definitely are not the way to go as they are a reference table set. The ECU needs to know how much torque we are demanding, and internal calculations would handle airload, boost, wastegate duty cycle, etc...
Here are the tables missing from my 2014 SHO that I believe should be present:
21239 Torque Limit TCC Locked
2843 Max Torque WOT
9690 Trans WOT Shift RPM
28936 Expected TIP
55011 Pressure Ratio (very important since it seems the stock EcoBoost Mustangs have about 2.04 max pressure ratio which is like 15 psi. We'd have to raise the PR's for various RPMs if desired boost is to go above this)
50539 Clip Inverse Torque
I've heard about another torque limiter, PTU Torque Limit, for the AWD car/SUVs.
I'm curious, what's the max actual/desired TIP value you see with your setup? Your max table is set for 42.24 inHg, which would be very low, something like 6-7 psi. We're missing the Expected TIP table. I believe this is the table used in the TIP logic where the ECU has to select a TIP between the minimum table and the max table based on various conditions. The EcoBoost Mustangs and I *think* the F-series have this table.
That 42.24 is actually in psi not in-Hg. The max actual/actual TIP are both 18 psi (when the turbo spools atleast). Since I set the minimum and the maximum both to 18 psi, it HAS to choose 18 psi. The big turbo on this car doesn't hit 18 until around 4400 rpm on my datalogs. You could just log your turbo pressure output with the TIP Actual and make those two tables the same so it has to choose that number. My problem is strictly related to the throttle body closing. I have removed all the electronics on this car controlling the turbo. It has external wastegates with a seperate boost controller and it has a mechanical blow off valve instead of electric ones. Basically the computer is freaking out because I'm making more torque than desired and the throttle is the only item it has left to control torque output.
21239 Torque Limit TCC Locked does appear to be missing, but are you sure it's not in the Torque management tab of the Transmission settings? I have TCC Locked Tq Max, and TCC Torque Truncation. Both of which do not affect my hard 350 ft-lb limit.
There is another table that is Torque Limit TCC unlocked that is nowhere to be found in Editor as well.
9690 - appears as 4881 in my calibration. Trans-->Auto Shift Speed----Shift Map base. Works fine on my setup. Just remember it's output shaft rpm, not engine rpm.
The other tables you're listing, I'm familiar with, but I think the main thing I'm missing is items in the transmission torque management tab.
No, 21239 and 9690 are different tables not found in the SHO. I set my OSS RPMs so that the engine would be at 6500 RPM or higher, but 4881 has no impact. I know how Ford shift schedules work, but it is still shifting at the stock RPMs at WOT.
Did you set WOT start and end to custom values? That will force your throttle plate to open at WOT (e.g. 500 / 571) and not shut by itself. It will still run into the torque limits though.
6825 and 6827 values are in inHg, not psi (max/min desired TIP) at least in my 2014 SHO.
I found those missing tables from other TC-1797 OS's, so they are definitely not substituted by other tables because the other tables are also present... hence why they are missing.
What are your datalogs looking like for Boost (TIP Actual-Barometric Pressure)?
Without changing the missing torque limits, axle limits, and PTU limits, there's no way to figure out why we're limited at 350 ft-lb. I recall SCT users running into the same problem initially and that SCT had to unlock parameters as well.
On mine the 6825 and 6827 are in PSI. You can click the unit of measure (as long as the font is green in color) next to the box to have it automatically converted to whichever unit of measure you prefer working with.
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The boost pressure on the Map Sensor holds steady around 10 psi. The TIP sensor is reading around 18 psi. All the pressures on my datalog are relative to atmospheric pressure btw.
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TIP.jpgSweet. I didn't realize that could be changed.
It looks like you are seeing 17.8 psi at the TIP sensor but only ~10 psi at the manifold. What's your Wastegate duty cycle in that region and airload? What's your Turbo Mass Flow / airflow numbers? The biggest delta I've seen is about 3-4 psi between the TIP and MAP, not counting any boost spikes from closing the throttle.
Are the Desired MAX/MIN TIP settings absolute or relative to atm?
Here are my settings, and the TIP basically maxes out at 50-55 inHg (stock)
Here's one where I changed the WOT start/stop settings so that the throttle angle stays open with my throttle open (Throttle AD is my Accel Pos Sensor for the actual pedal), notice the airload, mass airflow, and boost. This is one where I played with the torque tables to produce more boost. I was able to squeeze a bit more psi but not a whole lot, but increased my airflow by about 3 lb/min.
THROTTLE.jpg
Here's where I kept the stock WOT start/stop so the driver demand table is taken into account, and the ECU is controlling the throttle angle.
THROTTLE2.jpg
The MAX/MIN TIP settings are relative to atm. Set those to your desired tip boost pressure, I like to map out my turbos flow rates and make those tables exactly what the turbo will output. For some reason the turbo spools too fast the pcm will bleed off pressure no matter what you do. So don't just max out your desired min/max. But still make them identical.
You can add a channel to monitor "Turbo Overboost Detected." As long as that reads NO during your run, you know the ecu is not doing anything to bleed off boost. Mine reads no across the board because the car is easily making the 350 ft-lb of requested TQ with only 8-10 psi of boost. Basically boost is extremely trivial in this ecu. All the limiters we're messing with come into play when we're over the desired TQ. Once we raise the desired TQ, we can then monitor "throttle angle source" or "overboost detected" or "torque source" to get us to the right table/limiter. I'm just baffled by where the heck "Desired Torque" is coming from.
My airload around 10 psi is 1.4. All of my limiters and tables have been raised to support the higher air load, it's just the ECU doesn't think it needs more boost to achieve what you're asking of it.
Sidenote, you can also right click the channel unit of measure in the scanner and set it to whatever you like as well, so instead of having to stare at in-hg, you can read psi or kpa.
I thought I saw your actual TIP at 17.8 psi? What was the airload at that point and mass air flow?
Here's Cobb's explanation about the min/max desired TIP:
https://cobbtuning.atlassian.net/wik...ngboosttargets
I'm also wondering which table has "Desired Torque".
So you're recommending that the min/max desired TIP values match (e.g. 18 psi)? Would that affect part throttle/cruising conditions?
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