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Thread: Vortech coyote out of fuel with BAP and id1000 help.

  1. #1
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    Vortech coyote out of fuel with BAP and id1000 help.

    Hey guys, need some help here...

    So we are working on a friends car and have been fighting it a little bit. He has a 12' coyote with a Vortech blower making around 630WHP. He has a KB BAP and ID1000's and well we are running out of fuel. Car runs really well until about 5700 Rpms and starts turning lean. I've checked the BAP and it is wired directly and correct hitting 17.1 Volts as soon as it goes WOT, we checked fuel pressure and it drops from almost 60 to 34 during a pull on the dyno. Everything I know lead me to believe the fuel pump is bad and a fuel people have told me they have seen this happen. The ecu is commanding more fuel and it gives it to it all the way up to around 5700 and then it just stops and leans out.

    Some have also told me I need the SCT scanner because there are tables in there that the HPtuners software can't see while SCT can and most tell me that there is something wrong because there's no way it should be out of fuel at this point. I read somewhere that there is a table in the ecu area of Output voltage vs battery temperature based on battery temperature that you have to adjust the fuel pressure voltage allowance in there to exceeded where it's at factory?

    Pretty much lost at this point and don't want to make the kid buy a fuel system. Car runs great. My car runs great and makes 660whp but same thing happens with mine as well. I have a Paxton boss 302 and I am out at 6500rpms with no BAP. Thanks guys.

  2. #2
    Advanced Tuner Witt's Avatar
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    Post a tune and a log so we can rule out anything in your tune.

    The output voltage vs battery temp is under the system tab.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witt View Post
    Post a tune and a log so we can rule out anything in your tune.

    The output voltage vs battery temp is under the system tab.
    I'll see what I can get on here today from the tuner. I was just curious if we were missing something for added voltage in the ecu for factory fuel pump allowing the BAP to do its job. We put a pressure gague on did the fuel dyno run, started at near 60 ended pull at mid 30's, checked voltage from BAP, checked source, all seem ok. Just a little confused.

  4. #4
    Rayfinkle....killin me rand. just put this car back on the dyno. going to see what we can figure out here, ill grab a log and post up the tune. Im curious to know what others have ran into as far as max power (whp) with OEM pump and a 17.5V BAP.

  5. #5
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    You're out of pump. A lot of these cars are hit or miss because they are on the ragged edge of the pumps capacity. Your pump might be getting tired or a dirty sock/filter is affecting it. If you put a brand new stock pump in the car you might get lucky and gain 10-15psi, but, that is still not what the desired pressure should be. All the stock fuel system cars drop pressure with a power adder. I've seen lots of low boost cars drop to the 45-50psig range, subtract the boost from that and you would be in the 30-35psi delta range. The only thing keeping these cars alive are the oversized injectors. If your pressure is dropping to 34(I'll assume you are running around 10psi boost and quoting gauge pressure), your actual fuel injector pressure delta is around 24psi. You are probably pegging the injectors or the fuel trims are maxed out. One thing I highly recommend on the "pressure droppers" that aren't near as bad as yours, is to model the Inferred Rail Pressure vs Fuel Flow table to match what the car is doing. If you do not have it correct, you will end up with the maf curve jacked up higher than actual and it will throw everything off(airflow and load calculations).

    One last thing, don't worry about the alternator settings. The BAP acts like a step up regulator. If you have it set to 17 volts, it don't matter if the input voltage is 12 or 14, you will still have 17 coming out of it. It isolates the pump from the rest of the car and the alternator settings will not make a bit of difference as far as the pump is concerned.

    Kev

  6. #6
    Kevin, Much appreciated. I screwed around with this for most of the day. the fuel pressure goes down to about 43 Psi boost pressure is 8.5 psi, delta of only 34-35psi. MAF period is almost maxed out with this setup so took the peak period value up as well, just to try. I really needed someone who has done it a ton to say that this is the edge on a stock pump so thank you for that. Fuel trims are maxing out on the top end and just out of curiosity I lab scoped an injector ended up with 11-11.5ms at 6800RPM. Im certain its out of fuel pump and needs a better system. Thanks for the help once again much appreciated.

    Steve.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin@JPCRacing View Post
    You're out of pump. A lot of these cars are hit or miss because they are on the ragged edge of the pumps capacity. Your pump might be getting tired or a dirty sock/filter is affecting it. If you put a brand new stock pump in the car you might get lucky and gain 10-15psi, but, that is still not what the desired pressure should be. All the stock fuel system cars drop pressure with a power adder. I've seen lots of low boost cars drop to the 45-50psig range, subtract the boost from that and you would be in the 30-35psi delta range. The only thing keeping these cars alive are the oversized injectors. If your pressure is dropping to 34(I'll assume you are running around 10psi boost and quoting gauge pressure), your actual fuel injector pressure delta is around 24psi. You are probably pegging the injectors or the fuel trims are maxed out. One thing I highly recommend on the "pressure droppers" that aren't near as bad as yours, is to model the Inferred Rail Pressure vs Fuel Flow table to match what the car is doing. If you do not have it correct, you will end up with the maf curve jacked up higher than actual and it will throw everything off(airflow and load calculations).

    One last thing, don't worry about the alternator settings. The BAP acts like a step up regulator. If you have it set to 17 volts, it don't matter if the input voltage is 12 or 14, you will still have 17 coming out of it. It isolates the pump from the rest of the car and the alternator settings will not make a bit of difference as far as the pump is concerned.

    Kev

  7. #7
    So far this is the only thread discussing BAP's. What changes need to be made if any for a bap? i have a VMP p-n-p bap. i know on their site they say on sct software to adjust certain tables but i dont see those on HP.

  8. #8
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    Seems to be the magical question. Some say out of pump, plenty others are doing it just fine.

  9. #9
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    Yeah they're not on HPT. Having same issue.

  10. #10
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    Would be interested to see what is going on with the car.

  11. #11
    Advanced Tuner 15PSI's Avatar
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    I have a 2012 with a VMP Stage 3, ID1000s, Dual 67mm TB, 79mm pulley & VMP BAP. Conservative tune: 630+ RWHP, no fuel problems at all. In LaSota's Coyote cookbook, he states the stock pump is easily good for 600 RWHP; with a BAP, somewhere north of 700. My bet is the pump. Mileage?? Also, Kenne Bell tested Coyote pumps back in 2013. His results indicated that a stock Coyote pump can support 750 RWHP @ 13.5 Volts. Google 'Kenne Bell Coyote Fuel Pump Test' if interested.

  12. #12
    15psi did your car ever giving you a surging issue? Part throttle.

  13. #13
    Advanced Tuner 15PSI's Avatar
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    No. I have never had any surging issues related to fuel. When we loaded a base calibration in the car after I installed the blower, the throttle body oscillated and caused it to buck. That was caused by the traction control going nuts. We worked that out and it has been fine ever since. I was initially worried that I would have driveability issues with such a mild tune with such large injectors, but Injector Dynamics supplies very good values and the car drives like a stocker at low throttle settings.
    Last edited by 15PSI; 03-04-2016 at 03:09 PM.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by 15PSI View Post
    No. I have never had any surging issues related to fuel. When we loaded a base calibration in the car after I installed the blower, the throttle body oscillated and caused it to buck. That was caused by the traction control going nuts. We worked that out and it has been fine ever since. I was initially worried that I would have driveability issues with such a mild tune with such large injectors, but Injector Dynamics supplies very good values and the car drives like a stocker at low throttle settings.
    When traction control went nuts did the light in the cluster go off?

  15. #15
    Time for pump upgrade

  16. #16
    Advanced Tuner 15PSI's Avatar
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    No. The light was never illuminated.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by 15PSI View Post
    No. The light was never illuminated.
    Sorry to keep bugging but what was done to sort that? I might be having the same issue.