The E85 Thread

[turbotrana]

Datalogging is certainly a valuable tool tuning.
So by all means investigate these possible options you are referring to. If it works in practice, it will certainly get you closer to where you want to be. We are all interested where you end up with it.

[Huddo]

torque is not measured as such, it's a predictive table and changing what the ecu thinks it seeing has multiple affects in different areas of car operation, but again, you can not log minimum spark required to make the best torque, you need to measure that

[DarrylC]

minimum spark to achieve the best torque at a given rpm, as mentioned you will need a dyno to do that, roadtesting, track ect will not do it

Huddo, you can do this on the road or track with a data logger. It is just more exciting

I did it by finding where knock would set in and then backed off the timing until acceleration started to fall off. All done with the scanner you just need to accurately measure speed and time. Agreed it would be a lot safer and easier on the dyno but I need to know how well this translates to the track. I remember Dave Sheedy doing a Territory tune on the road with a Gtech ss and it was damn fast!

[Yortt]

torque is not measured as such, it's a predictive table and changing what the ecu thinks it seeing has multiple affects in different areas of car operation, but again, you can not log minimum spark required to make the best torque, you need to measure that

I thought I answered that, but thats fine if your conclusion is the dyno works for you stick with it, however right or wrong I draw a different conclusion based on what I have experienced.

[Huddo]

to many uncontrolled inconsistencies to be accurate but I guess it get it close, what about part throttle

[Yortt]

More to the point what about part throttle on the dyno the attached answers this with the conclusion get out on the road! the area on the video that covers this is 21.50 minutes to 24.34 minutes
http://learntotune.leadpages.co/efi-...519a6-99405589

[Huddo]

Yep AFR is easy to do on the road if you have time, spark or should say Minimum for beat torque is a different thing and what I asked about

[45T-XR]

I've done a few of those webinars from the HPA boys, in general they are quite good, but in terms of street tuning as they mention is that scenario all of their videos are done around tuning 95 or 98 octane fuel as that is what is predominantly available there. Quite pricey when I was over there too!. But in my experience, E85 behaves differently. In my opinion unleaded has a much narrower window between MBT and detonation, if the stock knock sensors are calibrated for that engine, that fuel and the point between the two are quite close then I can see the potential to use the scanner and knock sensor outputs to get closer to Minimum best timing. E85 Seems to achieve minimum timing for best torque far earlier than the point at which I'm prepared to continue to add more timing let alone try to hear it rattle, Once it stops making torque I stop and don't see the need to go any further, it just reduces your window. Granted there might be something I haven't experience that may be beneficial where continuing a few more degrees drops egts or something left field like that, but I haven't seen it. Being 90% street tuning, I've tried to log acceleration rates etc. But trying to isolate variables and get repeatability in the runs in a 500+rwkw car..Impossibru!!! (insert squinting asian here) Even with 275 Et streets on the back, 3rd gear mash it fries and 4th gear is too fast to wind out anywhere around me within and hour of home.

[45T-XR]

In regards to variation in AFR with load etc. What I do generally, is log the car on the road in 4th gear and do a pull from say 80-140kph, calculate the acceleration rate then on the mainline I've hired, chance the ramp rate to reflect what it logged on the street. I've also used previous timeslips from the drags and averaged the accel rate from 1/8th to full track and use that on the dyno. If I was doing customer cars I would actually load it at a slower rate on the dyno, with a bit more load that it would ever see at the track/street.

[Huddo]

thanx

[turbotrana]

More to the point what about part throttle on the dyno the attached answers this with the conclusion get out on the road! the area on the video that covers this is 21.50 minutes to 24.34 minutes
http://learntotune.leadpages.co/efi-...519a6-99405589

Whilst that video is good, what you quoted not really relevant. We are not dealing with a live tune programable EMS. We are dealing with a hacked ecu that we need to flash each time to see the results and we are mostly attempting to squeeze what ever we can out of the high load/rpm points. The low load/rpm points have already been tuned by ford.

[Yortt]

torque is not measured as such, it's a predictive table and changing what the ecu thinks it seeing has multiple affects in different areas of car operation, but again, you can not log minimum spark required to make the best torque, you need to measure that

Torque being described as a "predictive" makes no difference it is a reference obtained from sensors on the vehicle to determine if output is increasing, decreasing or no change, to plot the required timing.

[Yortt]

Whilst that video is good, what you quoted not really relevant. We are not dealing with a live tune programable EMS. We are dealing with a hacked ecu that we need to flash each time to see the results and we are mostly attempting to squeeze what ever we can out of the high load/rpm points. The low load/rpm points have already been tuned by ford.

Live or flash makes no difference.
I spend more time tuning down in "The low load/rpm points" than I do on the top end to improve economy and response.

[Yortt]

Again I guess we have to agree to disagree, what is more important is for those that have not drawn a conclusion yet is they now have the tool to determine for themselves with the availability of the new scanner.

[Huddo]

Torque being described as a "predictive" makes no difference it is a reference obtained from sensors on the vehicle to determine if output is increasing, decreasing or no change, to plot the required timing.

sorry, it's not an actual number at all and it's output that is logged can vary if somebody changes the table even with no other changes to the tune

[Yortt]

sorry, it's not an actual number at all and it's output that is logged can vary if somebody changes the table even with no other changes to the tune

You are missing the point, you can ignor the number completely, it does not matter how it is calculated, it is used as a reference only all you want to know is if there is a movement plus or minus in engine output or not!
Or you can use a user defined HP pid.
Or add on accelerometer which you can buy the bits off Ebay for a few dollars and use the Enhanced IO (EIO) input

[Huddo]

so you can keep guessing or pay for dyno time and know exactly?

[Gaz097]

So as it appears quite easy to reach MBT well before knock if you have enough ethanol percentage.
Then during tuning you's are keeping AFR's on the rich side (lets say 0.8 lambda) until you find MBT (Minimum timing for maximum torque) then how far do you lean out the AFR's? Do you continue on until Knock is detected, power starts to fall, or until EGT's are to high. Which occurs first here typically?

[Yortt]

So as it appears quite easy to reach MBT well before knock if you have enough ethanol percentage.
Then during tuning you's are keeping AFR's on the rich side (lets say 0.8 lambda) until you find MBT (Minimum timing for maximum torque) then how far do you lean out the AFR's? Do you continue on until Knock is detected, power starts to fall, or until EGT's are to high. Which occurs first here typically?

This should lead you to your answer
E85Laminarburnvelocity.jpg

[muz79]

Given that e85 has a much higher laminar flame speed at Lambda 1 than ULP, has anyone experimented with dropping cruise timing to see what it does to mbt on the dyno?