Strategy...Differences, Complaints, Suggestion

[schaid]

A little back story...I have a 2011 GT M6. Currently sporting a cobra jet intake manifold, monoblade tb, jba lth, id1000's, return fuel system w/ 450lph fuel pump and aeromotive regulator. The car runs HARD. Now that that's out of the way let's get into the purpose of this thread:

So I've got 3 different strategies unlocked for my vehicle. The stock 11 GT, a 12 Boss, and a 13 Boss. All 3 have different pros and cons. The gt seems to drive the best, which is shared with the 12 boss. The 13 boss has great cold start tendencies, but the way the 13's manage tip, regardless of what settings I've got I cannot eliminate the tip issue. The crap that hpt cannot seem to figure out the hard limit at 7600rpm in the gt's is why I've ventured into the other strategies.

I've also got a friend with a 2013 gt, the car will not accept spark changes. Along with tip in bs, again regardless of settings, will give a serious tip retard on shift. Switching this car over to the 11 GT strategy cured EVERY issue it was having.

What really irks me about this...I can put the SAME exact values in all 3 and from strategy to strategy the car will run completely different. This is a serious serious issue. Same values SHOULD run the exact same from strategy to strategy in the same vehicle with the same hardware yet there is no predictability to what the car will do from strategy to strategy. There are obviously some "hard" coding that effects this or possibly some tables that hpt has deemed "not needed". There are also tables that in a compare, even if they are set the EXACT same will show as a difference. Yet another issue.

I already know people swap these around for certain reasons. Why has hpt not thought of a way to create a universal strategy for all coyotes where EVERYTHING works as designed and eliminate the work load? Take a 12 boss open up all of the tables and here's your 11-12 base tune file. Likeswise with the 13's. Take a 13 boss and this becomes the strategy for ALL 13+ coyotes.

Why can't some sort of universal strategy be created for the coyote cars as well?

I've been working this car and the setup with hpt for over 2 years now. This particular topic is one that is extremely frustrating. It's only recently that it has really become a thorn that keeps stinging.

I can take a GM and if the car is the EXACT same setup flash the same tune from a previous car it MAY require MINOR touchups in certain areas. That however is not the case with fords...and it should be.

Come on HPT, this is within your abilities to resolve this.

[mattlinke]

I'd like to see a base fuel table for these cars still. Unless hpt actually says it doesn't exist (in the description for fuel base cold it says it switches to "fuel base" once it reaches temp to switch over).

Also; it's mine that has the spark tables issue with the 2013 strategy. 2011 strategy takes whatever spark I desire. 2013 with the same values won't flash (check charging system every time).

If I get fuel trims within 1% on both strategies, the 2013 seems to drive better and feel smoother on the same hardware and spark values (I put the 2013 spark in the 2011 file for comparison sake).

For wot fuel; the 2013 is always 5-8% leaner with the same settings (injector, maf, wot table etc) as 2011 which is running what I command it to.


2013 tip-in retard would drop spark to 0* on shifts over 7k, anything around 68-6900 was fine. But the car makes power over 7, and I shift at 7500. I don't mind having the 2011 strategy in the car but I'm not a fan of having to have used $200 in additional credits to put it in the car. (Im not saying that because I expect reimbursement; I don't, but the point remains)

Since I paid for the tune that is in the car; I don't feel comfortable sharing the file. I know it makes possibly more difficult to diagnose, but It isn't my data to share. Clearly the tables work on one strategy so it's not like a tune error or something silly; just one strategy doesn't like it for no particular reason.

[ZeroAviation]

What are the strategies you are using? Will you post up your tunes? The RPM limiting is a firmware limit I believe.

The changes you are experiencing is a calculation difference between the strategies as well.

Also remember switching between the 11/12 and 13/14 there are some minor cylinder head and block differences that affect the tune (i.e. oil squirters for cooling)

What tables do you think are missing that need to be added? Give us some more info.

Cheers,
-Matt

[schaid]

The info is in the post by mattlinke and myself. As for what strategies are being used:

13 Boss: FPRD1F5
12 Boss: FPRC156
13 GT: FPFD1AA
11 GT: FPDL5A2

As for the changes that you claim would effect the tune...yeah no. My 11 is running a 13 strategy, linke's 13 is running an 11 strategy. I've got a 12 boss running a gt strategy...all of this because of certain things that are happening from strategy to strategy even though EVERY parameter is identical. There are more tables that we are not seeing and that is the root cause here. Going from a 12 boss strategy to a 13 boss strategy yields different results with the same tune so that completely negates your argument about mechanical differences because the road runner had zero change from 12 to 13.

[mattlinke]

All that I can find in searching for differences between 11 and 13 coyotes (not boss motors) is that the Oil Squirters were removed for 13+.

I dont see that being a major player in how the two run. Is anyone aware of any changes that would effect anything that would cause them to run so differently?

I read that the headbolts on the 2013 are different to allow for larger cooling to the #8 hole, but that wasnt confirmed. I also read that 2013 has larger headbolts. lol.

2015+ has head changes that i read about, so i could understand that, but this is still s197 stuff.

Disregarding fuel and how the car runs entirely, why would one strategy that runs my tuners timing tables run great, but then when copying all of the values for timing into the 2013 strategy it doesnt even accept the flash into the car? (check charging system AFTER the tune flashes completely, not even one where it fails at 74.2%). Ive tried this a few different ways (even a stock file with JUST timing tables changed, it WONT take it)

It just doesnt make sense.

[AKDMB]

Wonder how the big name email tuners(the ones that don't request datalogs) get around this? If you think about all the different strategies they deal with and how one set of values might respond differently in a different strategy. Either they don't care, they have developed tunes with each strategy or SCT doesn't have this problem.

[schaid]

That's a great question. I'm sure if you were to actually pull a data log from one of those so called "tuners" I'm sure you'd find fuel trims out to lunch or the tune is so unbelievably conservative it could pass for a ford calibration. In most cases those tunes don't adjust much and are just eliminating or reducing tq management tables as well as a little fudging with spark advance. I've seen some of those "no data log" tunes and there isn't much different in them. In most cases they do request the strategy or another code on the pcm, this would lead me to believe they have a data base in which to pull from in order to get the parameters at least close when adjusting for things such as cold air intakes and other bolt-ons.

[TunedByNishan]

All that I can find in searching for differences between 11 and 13 coyotes (not boss motors) is that the Oil Squirters were removed for 13+.

I dont see that being a major player in how the two run. Is anyone aware of any changes that would effect anything that would cause them to run so differently?

I read that the headbolts on the 2013 are different to allow for larger cooling to the #8 hole, but that wasnt confirmed. I also read that 2013 has larger headbolts. lol.

2015+ has head changes that i read about, so i could understand that, but this is still s197 stuff.

Disregarding fuel and how the car runs entirely, why would one strategy that runs my tuners timing tables run great, but then when copying all of the values for timing into the 2013 strategy it doesnt even accept the flash into the car? (check charging system AFTER the tune flashes completely, not even one where it fails at 74.2%). Ive tried this a few different ways (even a stock file with JUST timing tables changed, it WONT take it)

It just doesnt make sense.

I discovered the same problem when trying to convert a 14' GT to a 13' Boss 302 Strategy.

It is in fact in the spark timing tables.

I must have flashed the ENTIRE tune in segments 100 times just so I could pin point what it didn't like and I discovered it was in the "Idle Spark Advance" section, specially the 3 Gain Tables:

ECM 32368 - Derivative Gain
ECM 32369 - Proportional Gain
ECM 32370 - Proportional Gain N-D

If you leave these tables untouched (from the boss 302) file it will take the file and start up.

I have been frustrated with this myself.

There is very little info on this topic and those who do know, will not share it (I don't expect them too, that is their accomplishment).

I have been figuring this all out by experimenting writing small changes to the tune file one by one.

[mattlinke]

Id started doing the same thing. 5 million tune flashes to determine what cells were causing issues. I ended up giving up that day because i ran out of time (kids woke from their nap) and never went back to it.

Ill see how leaving those 3 tables in the 13 strategy alone goes. would be nice to get my cruise control back.

Its not a huge deal in the end of it all, because the car runs fine on the 2011 file and eventually itll be boosted and have a 13 boss file anyhow. Im hoping that the 13 boss file jives with the cruise in the 13 gt. i think it doesnt work 11 to 13 because the button map is different.


Thanks for putting time in on this. If anything itll be a way for HPT to figure out what the issue is. Always nice to have bug free tuning.

[thegraystang]

Id started doing the same thing. 5 million tune flashes to determine what cells were causing issues. I ended up giving up that day because i ran out of time (kids woke from their nap) and never went back to it.

Ill see how leaving those 3 tables in the 13 strategy alone goes. would be nice to get my cruise control back.

Its not a huge deal in the end of it all, because the car runs fine on the 2011 file and eventually itll be boosted and have a 13 boss file anyhow. Im hoping that the 13 boss file jives with the cruise in the 13 gt. i think it doesnt work 11 to 13 because the button map is different.


Thanks for putting time in on this. If anything itll be a way for HPT to figure out what the issue is. Always nice to have bug free tuning.

Me and nishan have been going back and fourth today with what he just mentioned. it has to be more than those 3 sections. i got tired of hard parking at the starbucks trying to find which other ones were it and just copied the MP tables and left.

But like what the OP was saying. im at the point where i think my issues are stagety based. im using my stock stragety for my roush blower with what i beleive to be good solid values and im still having trouble.

[wbt]

Me and nishan have been going back and fourth today with what he just mentioned. it has to be more than those 3 sections. i got tired of hard parking at the starbucks trying to find which other ones were it and just copied the MP tables and left.

But like what the OP was saying. im at the point where i think my issues are stagety based. im using my stock stragety for my roush blower with what i beleive to be good solid values and im still having trouble.

Most likely you will need to convert to a Roush strategy.

I will say I tried running a Roush strategy on a single turbo car and that was a no go. The more load I introduced the less timing it would command regardless of what I changed in the borderline tables. I went back to the stock tune and wrote a new tune with the same values as I had in the Roush strategy and problem solved.

I have also seen differences between strategies on N/A car's. Same mods, same tune.....not the same results. Strange nuances we have to deal with at times.

[thegraystang]

Most likely you will need to convert to a Roush strategy.

I will say I tried running a Roush strategy on a single turbo car and that was a no go. The more load I introduced the less timing it would command regardless of what I changed in the borderline tables. I went back to the stock tune and wrote a new tune with the same values as I had in the Roush strategy and problem solved.

I have also seen differences between strategies on N/A car's. Same mods, same tune.....not the same results. Strange nuances we have to deal with at times.

I have a file thats a roush stragety, just its an AUTO car. does that matter?

[wbt]

I have a file thats a roush stragety, just its an AUTO car. does that matter?

Yes. You will need a Roush strategy for a manual trans car and it will need to either be for 11-12 or 13-14 depending on what year of car you have.

[thegraystang]

Yes. You will need a Roush strategy for a manual trans car and it will need to either be for 11-12 or 13-14 depending on what year of car you have.

Believe I've found a 14 6 speed one to try out.

[thegraystang]

does anyone have a stock 13-14 roush file they could post?

[TunedByNishan]

Id started doing the same thing. 5 million tune flashes to determine what cells were causing issues. I ended up giving up that day because i ran out of time (kids woke from their nap) and never went back to it.

Ill see how leaving those 3 tables in the 13 strategy alone goes. would be nice to get my cruise control back.

Its not a huge deal in the end of it all, because the car runs fine on the 2011 file and eventually itll be boosted and have a 13 boss file anyhow. Im hoping that the 13 boss file jives with the cruise in the 13 gt. i think it doesnt work 11 to 13 because the button map is different.


Thanks for putting time in on this. If anything itll be a way for HPT to figure out what the issue is. Always nice to have bug free tuning.

No problem. It took me a very long to figure out

When I saw your frustration, I felt it haha.

[txcharlie]

I know of tuners that use SCT and have the same issues. Copy tune into strategy A and it runs like crap. Copy same tune into strategy B and it runs great. These issues were happening with the first GT500's being tuned, so it's nothing new.

These strategies are considered, the most reliable, by the gurus:
DZW3 = 2013 Boss
VKU1 = 2012 Boss
FPDW252 = 2011-12 Roush
FPFR056 = 2013-14 Roush
FSD5YAR = 2011-12 Auto ProCal
MGSPAA7 = 2013-14 Auto ProCal
FPDX0A8 = Ford Racing GT500 (Stock TB)
FGDX2S6 = Ford Racing GT500 (Twin 65mm TB)
XAX40_SCCJ_13 = Ford Racing SCJ (Mono Blade TB)

[xBoostx]

I had one car, a 2012 I believe, act like a bitch while tuning. Ended up copying a tune from another 12 I tuned and the problem stopped. Mind you he was tuned else where before. Not sure how that factored.

The three table mentioned above I have to modify on all stangs for colds starts. if not they backfire and stumble when cold. once i change the negative values to 0 and i never have an issue. Thats all I really have issues with.

But it is pretty wild how similar year cars can act so different.

[Yagermeister]

I wonder if IDS ecu updates from the dealer affect the stock tunes that are read then modified by tuners vs the strategy that came with the car originally and may still be trying to be used by tuners.

[AKDMB]

When I got an email tune for my car, my tuner told me to look up the strategy code with my SCT X3 and not to look at the barcode on the PCM, as the dealer could have updated it and I could potentially be giving them an incorrect strategy code. I don't think that explains this issue though. I imagine Eric could give us a straight answer on it, since he knows how these PCM's work inside and out. Whatever it is, SCT hasn't fixed it and HP Tuners hasn't, so it's probably something we just have to put up with.