LE5 Turbo build questions

[Robotech]

Normally I don't have this kind of difficulty searching forums for information but right now I'm feeling pretty lost here.

First off, about what I'm doing. I have a 2007 LE5 Saturn Sky with a Manual 5 speed transmission and I'm putting on the K04 turbo off the LNF on the car. Turbo, manifold, water lines, oil feed tube, and intercooler core are all off the LNF. Oil return line and charge tubes will be aftermarket. Going with 60# injectors and a 2 bar MAP. Stock LE5 MAF will be located in the cold pipe coming from the intercooler. Turbo will have a manual boost controller though I doubt the stock LE5 block and head will allow more than 9 lbs of boost...but that comes later.

My issue is I don't know where to start when it comes to modifying the stock tune on the LE5 for a turbo application. Last time I tuned a car was in 2007 and that was a Supercharged 3800 in a Grand Prix. That engine came supercharged so tuning seemed a bit easier. However, much of what I knew then is forgotten and I feel as though I'm starting from scratch nevermind the fact that the LE5 ECM and its tables are probably vastly different from the PCM in the Grand Prix.

I've tried searching and have found some information but it seems to confuse me more than make things clear. It's like I'm seeing pieces of what I need to know but can't get the bigger picture. Any help in getting me started and pointing me in the right direction here would be greatly appreciated.

[JimmyS]

Check the tune repository and you'll see a couple of LE5 turbo tunes. You can compare the tunes to your stock tune to see what others have done when adding a turbo setup to the LE5. https://www.hptuners.com/customers/tune.php?

If the link didn't work, search the repository for Saturn, Sky, 2.4L4, all year models and all transmission models.

[Robotech]

Jimmy...am new to HPTuners and haven't got my copy yet. I like to research first but looks like I need to break down and purchase so I can search through the repository. Didn't even know that existed. Thanks for the point in the right direction.

[JimmyS]

I sent you a PM

[Robotech]

Good lord there isn't much there for a Sky 2.4. Even cross referencing Cobalts, HHRs and Ions...not much on turbo charged 2.4s.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

you dont see anything for boosted 2.4 in these years because that ecu is a paint in the a$$. no one has tested the reversion tables, the true base ve tables haven't been solidly defined, and the factory has the maf disabled from the start. The best you can do without a lot of testing time is perform a full maf tune to account for fueling issues.
as of right now i know of only these sections that have been researched by hpt users in this ecu model:
cam position tables
maf enable tables
maf calibration tables
ignition
pe enrichment control
cat disable
trq management
boost enable
engine diagnostic control for buggy applications
and throttle base settings for buggy applications

[patooyee]

you dont see anything for boosted 2.4 in these years because that ecu is a paint in the a$$. no one has tested the reversion tables, the true base ve tables haven't been solidly defined, and the factory has the maf disabled from the start. The best you can do without a lot of testing time is perform a full maf tune to account for fueling issues.
as of right now i know of only these sections that have been researched by hpt users in this ecu model:
cam position tables
maf enable tables
maf calibration tables
ignition
pe enrichment control
cat disable
trq management
boost enable
engine diagnostic control for buggy applications
and throttle base settings for buggy applications

Sorry for bringing an ancient thread back to life but I purchased a vehicle partially based on your advice:

if you can lower compression on a le5 to 9 i would stuff with boost and be done with it. easy upgrades, nice computer to work with ...

What has changed since then? I believe that both the 2006 Cobalt SS and 2007 Sky should have the E67 ECM which is the most comprehensively supported Ecotec ECM by HPT that I have seen so far. I can say positively that my Cobalt SS has an E67 and the above tune referenced by JimmyS from a 2007 Sky does also.

I also know that ZZP provides a base tune with their turbo kits so they apparently feel pretty comfortable tuning the E67.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

in my mind its still the best option out of the n/a conversions because of everything it offers both as motor and control.
this ecu model has the most control functions which is why i pick it as the nicest one to work with. the gobs of features the factory gives you places this higher on my desired ecu list. If you wanted it simple you were never really gonna get it with a vvt function engine. Even a standalone would require hours of mapping physical cam settings and entering calculations to control the shifts under a PID system which has its own difficulties in set up and control.
The earlier gm engines are alpha n, which is not desired for boost. Although this system can be half way faked into controlling boost fueling and spark, it still remains highly un-recommended. If you chose a newer 2.2 to walk away from alpha n then you get the same ecu your staring at now. Might as well make it a 2.4 if its all the same otherwise. The 2.4 also has a more desired crankshaft, its the one all the 2.0 guys steal to do stroker setups while avoiding the cost of an expensive custom forged crank.

as you stated this ecu has the most features out of the previously offered n/a ecu's. The only thing making this "a pain in the a$$" is the fact that there is no real definition of the base ve tables, prediction and coefficient tables, and the fact that lots of tables have undefined axis. on those tables with undefined axis, unless you are apart of the programming team for the ecu, you will never know what those table axis are, making it damn near impossible to figure out how to calibrate those tables. I have asked HPT if they could shed light on those unknown factors but their answer was "we dont know ourselves", and thats not for lack of trying. obviously if they didnt try then we wouldn't have control over those tables in the first place. at the first sight of an axis being un-identifiable HPT could have easily been like "well just leave that out, they dont need it". all ve tables that have been explored thus far, on this forum, are all partial cycle control.
ve coefficient: all tables listed underneath are settings for map sensor and camshaft position ve controls
ve main table : isn't the ve table you think of as they are all "reversion cycle only"
and on top of those you still have TM Engine Air-mass Coefficients which are similar in theory to the lnf (prediction based)

as in a quote you highlighted, this ecu is most likely to be tuned in full maf control. the same way lsj guys get tired of ve corrections and just re-tuning the maf to compensate for everything. Its still a great ecu and can be used to control fueling under boost no problem, just keep in mind that performing a complete re-calibration will most likely never happen. There are plenty of guys out there putting the power down through this ecu platform. Don't let the lack of control scare you away. I really should have reworded my original antagonizing post to say " you dont see anything for these years of 2.4 because boost control is all done through maf activation".

[steelmesh]

Normally I don't have this kind of difficulty searching forums for information but right now I'm feeling pretty lost here.

First off, about what I'm doing. I have a 2007 LE5 Saturn Sky with a Manual 5 speed transmission and I'm putting on the K04 turbo off the LNF on the car. Turbo, manifold, water lines, oil feed tube, and intercooler core are all off the LNF. Oil return line and charge tubes will be aftermarket. Going with 60# injectors and a 2 bar MAP. Stock LE5 MAF will be located in the cold pipe coming from the intercooler. Turbo will have a manual boost controller though I doubt the stock LE5 block and head will allow more than 9 lbs of boost...but that comes later.

My issue is I don't know where to start when it comes to modifying the stock tune on the LE5 for a turbo application. Last time I tuned a car was in 2007 and that was a Supercharged 3800 in a Grand Prix. That engine came supercharged so tuning seemed a bit easier. However, much of what I knew then is forgotten and I feel as though I'm starting from scratch nevermind the fact that the LE5 ECM and its tables are probably vastly different from the PCM in the Grand Prix.

I've tried searching and have found some information but it seems to confuse me more than make things clear. It's like I'm seeing pieces of what I need to know but can't get the bigger picture. Any help in getting me started and pointing me in the right direction here would be greatly appreciated.

I have a Turbo'd 2006 Solstice 2.4 LE5, it sees 11 psi daily in my daily driver. Werks turbo kit, 60 lb injectors, high flow cat + magnaflow exhaust, LC-1 Wideband, HP tuners MVPI Pro (monitor Wideband and Fuel Pressure). When I purchased the car, it was running 8 psi on a hack job tune with random hack job wiring under the hood. The tune was horrible, you WOT at 3200 RPM it would go 8:1 fuel ratio and bog on it's face. The PE Enrich table represented the Himalayas.

After 40 hours of tuning/scanning:
My PE Enrich is commanding 11.3:1 Fuel across the RPM range. LTFT cruises at -/+1. I tuned the VE table, however I disable it early in the 2000 RPMs range and use MAF for the rest. I wrote a timing curve from scratch, literally looking at google images of maps and building the matrix.

I recommend this guide for the LE5 E67 PCM with non-existent VE tables as we know them: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196696

[cobaltssoverbooster]

I have a Turbo'd 2006 Solstice 2.4 LE5, it sees 11 psi daily in my daily driver. Werks turbo kit, 60 lb injectors, high flow cat + magnaflow exhaust, LC-1 Wideband, HP tuners MVPI Pro (monitor Wideband and Fuel Pressure). When I purchased the car, it was running 8 psi on a hack job tune with random hack job wiring under the hood. The tune was horrible, you WOT at 3200 RPM it would go 8:1 fuel ratio and bog on it's face. The PE Enrich table represented the Himalayas.

After 40 hours of tuning/scanning:
My PE Enrich is commanding 11.3:1 Fuel across the RPM range. LTFT cruises at -/+1. I tuned the VE table, however I disable it early in the 2000 RPMs range and use MAF for the rest. I wrote a timing curve from scratch, literally looking at google images of maps and building the matrix.

this guide for the LE5 E67 PCM with non-existent VE tables as we know them: http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=196696

After reading that myself, i would agree, this should be a must read for all E67 users. This software is making all the corrections for you so there is no axis guessing. Not only does it sort the hard stuff out for you it calibrates all the coefficients at once making the process faster. Now i can say ive seen true ve support for the 2.2/2.4 field. This just made these platforms that much better. Thank you for contributing here at HPTForums.

[steelmesh]

After reading that myself, i would agree, this should be a must read for all E67 users. This software is making all the corrections for you so there is no axis guessing. Not only does it sort the hard stuff out for you it calibrates all the coefficients at once making the process faster. Now i can say ive seen true ve support for the 2.2/2.4 field. This just made these platforms that much better. Thank you for contributing here at HPTForums.

I'm using EQ_VE 3.5 found here: http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...VE-Version-3-5 ...linked from that original thread link I posted

Note to new E67 LE5 HPT tuners: download it now if you want to tune VE

[cobaltssoverbooster]

i now have version 4 and its pretty easy to use. newest version is listed on the last page here: http://www.hptuners.com/forum/showth...ion-3-5/page15

[patooyee]

The guy who wrote that tutorial has several other very useful ones that deserve links:

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=197042

[bajalobster]

It's an amazing utility. My le5 is currently boosted using maf for upper end fueling. I used this utility to setup a 2 bar pe table and the utility converts it to usable equations for the e67. I'm still testing but it seems to actually work - allowing speed density all the way to WOT if desired.

[bajalobster]

On another note, my idle cleaned up quite a bit when I was able to manipulate the VE equations. Bottom line is we were at a disadvantage while trying to tune this motor with the e67 without the ability to access the ve tables. It was doable, but this is much better.

[patooyee]

Do you guys mind sharing some details about your turbo setups? For example ...

• What turbo are you using?
• Kit or build it yourself?
• For those using the LNF K04, how are you controling the internal wastegate? Or are you disabling it and using a manual one?
• If you are using the E67, are you using any of the supercharger tables to control the turbo system?
• What intake and exhaust mannifold are you using?
• What MAP are you using?

[bajalobster]

all junkyard custom crap, 2bar map, regular fuel tables, maf tables and now ve tables but at 2 bar.

There is more info in the middle of this thread, but this is an offroad application so may not be much help.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=596983

[patooyee]

all junkyard custom crap, 2bar map, regular fuel tables, maf tables and now ve tables but at 2 bar.

There is more info in the middle of this thread, but this is an offroad application so may not be much help.

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=596983

Interesting. It appears that I will be building my own system as well since ZZP has told me that they do not have time to sell me a turbo setup and I have been trying unsuccessfully for over a week now to get a hold of anyone at Hahn. I see that you used a Hahn intake and exhaust? Do those flow much better than a stock LNF?

BTW, my application is also offroad, although not the same offroad as you. (Rock buggy.)

[bajalobster]

I have had several communications with Hahn. They are very cordial and informative, but did not have a turbo to sell me. With regard to the intake, I purchased the hahn intake because it allowed the turbo to sit very high so that I had room to tuck the exhaust underneath without ground clearance issues. I know nothing about flow, just looking for more power.

[patooyee]

10 days now I've been trying to reach someone at Hahn to no avail. It would be nice to deal with them because they are close enough to me to bring the rig to them for dyno-tuning. But if it is this hard to get a hold of them for a sale I can't imagine how difficult it would be for service afterwards.