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Thread: help rolls transition from a tuna to a tuner

  1. #41
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    Why? I thought tuner locking is more to make sure a client doesn't change tuners, not to make sure a client/tuner keeps using a certain tuning package?

    End of the day SCT and HPTuners both do the same thing, reverse engineer PCM code so it wouldn't take either of them very long to "crack" each others tuner lock methods, all you need to do is compare a before/after PCM hex dump to see what changes when they do a lock with each others hardware, probably a lot less work than documenting each DMR in the first place.

  2. #42
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    What PID can I log knock with in livelink? If I load all variables for my strategy after validation there are no knock variables left. All I can seem to log is spark adder?

    Are there other PIDs that don't show up in the database that I could log?

  3. #43
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    Something else, the intake air temperatures seem to drop when I get on boost. Even on the freeway when my speed is already up they always seem to drop after a pull. The only time they go up is idling or cruising after a big pull.

    I thought the turbo compressing the air would always increase the air temperature due to compression? The only answer I have is the IAT sensor is before the turbo, as higher speed and lower pressure (vacuum in the intake when on boost) results in lower temperature. Someone told me the IAT sensor is part of the MAP sensor and is in the manifold, if so why does the IAT drop when on boost?

  4. #44
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    *
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    IAT seems to have an inverse relationship with vehicle speed and almost nothing to do with boost level at all... learn something new everyday!
    *
    Just to confirm, the IAT sensor is DEFINITELY after the turbo right? It isn't sitting in the intake piping??

  5. #45
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    You're not driving hard enough to see IAT rise. Yes it is part of the map sensor...hence why it's called t-MAP.

  6. #46
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    Eric how did you go with unlocking the sct tune?

  7. #47
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    Just spoken to Darryl regarding getting the correct slopes but thought I would post here to see what you guys say aswell.

    Something I want to understand better is why I'm adjusting the injector slopes. From what I've read the injector tables from ID are correct when filled out with the correct ethanol % and fuel pressure. The fact these values when entered in with stock SD tables results in a ~-20% fuel trim is what confuses me. The speed density tables for idle and light cruise should never need changing if I have standard head etc so this makes me want to know why we have to then adjust the slopes by ~20-30%

    Is it because the injectors are flowing more than we expect?
    Is it because the injector data is incorrect due to our conditions being different to what they use?
    Is it because the speed density tables are no longer correct and it is simpler to adjust the injector slopes than to recalc all the maps?

    Darryls suggested they will be out due to differences in fuel used, the ID spreadsheet has an ethanol factor that you can fill out, assuming my fuel and what I have picked here is correct is this due to other differences in AU/US fuel? How can it account for a 20-30% difference?

    Once I adjust the slopes to get cruise/idle mixtures correct with minimal STFT (btw what is considered acceptable, 1%, 5% 10%?) the rest seems straight forward I just want to know why we do it this way as I like to understand what I'm doing fully before doing it.

    Cheers

  8. #48
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    ~4 % +/- LTFT is acceptable.

  9. #49
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    Thanks

    Also O2 transport delay, what do people normally do with this and a 4" dump. Do you multiply the entire table out by a factor or just increase the learn limits? If you don't adjust anything will it just mean the short term trim "chases" itself as there is a larger lag in the system than it expects?

  10. #50
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    Anyone had troubles with livelink logging the analog inputs for their HPTuners file? I can view the analog input on the handcontroller fine but if I try and datalog it it will log for 2.49 seconds then halt the logging of all variables. If I delete the analog input from the list it is fine, as soon as I add either the red/orange one back in the datalog halts at exactly 2.49 seconds.

    It works fine with my SCT tune loaded in but with the HPTuners tune it won't log the analog inputs.

  11. #51
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    Its a bit of everything you said. At the end of the day you got to tune to what the engine wants/needs and to a certain degree how you want to tune it.

    In regards to O2 transport delay. Yes it is something that might need attention with a large dump. Most don't touch it. Goodluck if you can measure the adjustment required. It would be very minor.

  12. #52
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    What fuel are you using? You'll find a different STFT and LTFT for E10, 91, 95 and 98 octane fuels. Each fuel has a different calorific value/different burn rate. 91 Octane fuel burns the fastest, but has the least resistance to detonation. It should theoretically show the lowest value fuel trim, where as the slowest burning fuels will show the highest trims if the spark values are not changed.

    You'll need to adjust the spark tables accordingly if you're using flex fuel or E85.

    As turbotrana said I wouldn't worry about the transport delay unless you intent putting the O2 sensors in the tail pipe. Most shops don't bother with it.

  13. #53
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    Ok that makes sense, it seems other people are coming up with similar slopes to me with id1000

    So with live link any ideas why it won't log the analog inputs for more than 2 seconds when the hpt tune is loaded in? If I delete it from the list it logs fine.

  14. #54
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    Someone in another thread said this:

    In the narrow-band control vehicles STFT < 1.0 and LTFT > 1.0 are both adding fuel while STFT > 1.0 and LTFT < 1.0 are removing fuel.
    From my logging this appears correct as I was seeing STFT of ~0.9 but a LTFT of ~1.1 which was very confusing at first.

    This means the car is rich by 10% yes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Romulus View Post
    What fuel are you using? You'll find a different STFT and LTFT for E10, 91, 95 and 98 octane fuels. Each fuel has a different calorific value/different burn rate. 91 Octane fuel burns the fastest, but has the least resistance to detonation. It should theoretically show the lowest value fuel trim, where as the slowest burning fuels will show the highest trims if the spark values are not changed.

    You'll need to adjust the spark tables accordingly if you're using flex fuel or E85.

    As turbotrana said I wouldn't worry about the transport delay unless you intent putting the O2 sensors in the tail pipe. Most shops don't bother with it.
    using 98 0% ethanol fuel. I wonder how much the burn rate influences the AFR?

  15. #55
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    If the trims are - then it's trimming fuel, + is adding fuel. IIRC max trim is 25% +/- before a DTC is set. You should be tuning with a WB O2 for each fuel, AFR's should be set in Lambda, especially ethanol based fuel.
    Last edited by Romulus; 10-16-2015 at 03:55 AM.

  16. #56
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    I have a wideband as well just wanted to see how the trims compared.

    I will disable o2 feedback once the trims look good and just the wideband then

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by jchambers View Post
    What year vehicle? If pre-2011 (pre-Copperhead) then this is correct. In the narrow-band control vehicles STFT < 1.0 and LTFT > 1.0 are both adding fuel while STFT > 1.0 and LTFT < 1.0 are removing fuel.
    Is this true for our ecus?

  18. #58
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    Well I've got my trims down to about -+2-5% at idle/cruise, if I disable closed loop the wideband reads about ~15:1 +- 0.5 afr. Figure wasn't that far from the ID numbers in the end.

    Ended up with a low slope of 111 lb/h, if I hold revs at about ~3k in neutral it is a little poppy though even with the trims not really going much past a few percent, is this likely and issue with the offset, where do people start looking for things like that?
    Last edited by rolls; 10-17-2015 at 01:51 AM.

  19. #59
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    You need to dial in both the high slope and lo slope at the same time juggling the figures around. If its popping at revs, its hi slope and your fuel base (desired lambda table at open loop) you need to look at.

    I normally set ALL lambda in the fuel base to 14.7. Then have closed loop off (except at idle where cant turn off). Then do very light cruise (under 60kph) where it should be using lo slope. This is where datalogging your inj pulse with and thru calculation you can roughly estimate the switch over point. I have use a multi meter in the past for inj pulse width but datalogging better if you can.
    Tune the lo slope.
    Then under moderate load adjust the high slope. (under moderate load with little to no boost will not do anything to the engine at 1 lambda).

    Both will affect one another.

    But you have the data where it makes it alot easier. You don't need to touch inj offset, only hi and lo slope and should be pretty much be around the given numbers.

    Then make sure you adjust the fuel base high load points back to 12:1 and it should go there. If its off then you can just adjust the fuel base numbers up or down to get you closer to where you want.

    Remember the factory probably got the injector parameters from Bosch then tuned the speed density tables around those numbers.

    Whereas we are keeping the speed density tables as they are and adjusting the injectors to suit. They should match closely but injectors of different design do behave differently but at the end of the day near enough is close enough at this level of tuning.

    I have left my closed loop off and adjusted the base fuel table to leaner fuel ratios in the cruise areas and drives great.
    Last edited by turbotrana; 10-17-2015 at 10:11 PM.

  20. #60
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    When I said popping at revs I mean in neutral with no load, would it be using the high slope in neutral at revs with ID1000 ? I really need to figure out how to get the pulse width and commanded lambda logged as otherwise I'm guessing.

    Also I turned closed loop off so my LTFT and STFT were frozen at 1.00 And filled my table with 0.78 instead of 1.0 however at cruise my mixtures barely dropped at all. Is this because even though closed loop has been disabled it still tries to use 1.00 as commanded lambda and will only use the values in the table if I flatten the accelerator eg get the open loop flag set?

    The reason I wanted to do that was to just check my commanded lambda vs actual lambda without getting on boost.

    Also the spark lambda correction tables I want to zero out from 0.8 to 0.7 lambda to simplify things when I get to ignition tuning. Can someone explain these tables, eg the Lambda vs rpm correction has 2.0 at 0.7 lambda and 5000 rpm, does this mean it adds 2 degrees or multiplies it by 2%?

    The Spark Lambda MBT correction however has -2.50 at 0.7 lambda, does this then subtract 2.50?

    Eg if the MBT table (assuming no other corrections) was 10 degrees at 5000 rpm and I had 0.7 lambda (for argument sake), would I then end up with 10 + 2 - 2.5 = 9.5 ?
    Last edited by rolls; 10-18-2015 at 12:02 AM.