Bench Simulator - Triggering E38 ecu, or any ECU really...

[10_SS]

ok... I think it's solved... I put all fuel injector settings to either 0 or 1... reflashed, settings on the simulator were setup like this for consistency.. 1021rpm, 46mpa MAP, 223f coolant, 99f IAT. then:
1) instantly the HPTuners injector pulse and scope pulse were much closer together then earlier tests, however at first the scope was showing longer pulse as expected. HPT = 5.11ms vs scope of 5.45ms, IVT was ~235f and increasing...
2) Once IVT reached max temp (333.1F) then the scope injector pulse finally matched the HPTuners Injector pulse... this time was ~8min. 5.12ms for HPT, and 5.13ms on scope, with IVT at 333.1f,
3) IF engine RPM is stopped, or KEY is turned OFF for just a min, IVT decreases back to coolant temp within a few minutes, however if restarted, pulse width still match, even though IVT iis cold (near coolant temp of ~225f) it continues climbing back to ~333f. Scope pulse does not change this time. It stays "lean" and matches the HPTuners PW.
4) IF complete battery power is removed, OR it is FLASHED, then the scope Injector PW resets and the process starts over (the process = scope actual PW is higher than HPTuners reported PW until the IVT gets high for the first time, even when coolant is hot and engine is started hot).

So, someone also said they go WOT once or twice then it seems to be fixed right after flashing, I think that's because it heats up the intake valve much faster than idling/low load.


Realtime video of this event...
at 4:57 pulse are equal, RPM stopped/key off. IVT allowed to cool for ~3min.
at 7:46 started back up, first at 600rpm then back to normal 1025rpm. Pulse match perfectly. If I power down batt or reflash, then this pattern resets.
https://youtu.be/H317c68o1g8

[schpenxel]

I am 100% sure that HPT reported PW and actual do not match regardless of time since flash, IVT, etc. There's no way ID1000's idle at 0.8 msec, which is what mine always shows. At least on an E40..

[10_SS]

I am 100% sure that HPT reported PW and actual do not match regardless of time since flash, IVT, etc. There's no way in hell ID1000's idle at 0.8 msec, which is what mine always shows

mine is rock solid.. a small change in MAP causes a big change in pulse.. I had to remove the MAP POT and use a resistor to keep it more consistent.. I was getting a bit of fluctuation... I'll post a vid. It's cool now that I understand it. If your seeing the pulse change, then it's probably because IVT is still changing. I made mine show two decimals, that's how sensitive it is.

[schpenxel]

What settings did you set to 0 or 1?? Are you saying you changed the short pulse adder and offset tables to 0?

If so, then that would make sense. When I took "reported" PW + offset + short pulse adder for my idle conditions it was nearly dead on what I read with the 'scope at the same time. This was at least a day after a flash, so everything should have settled down already. If you have all of those set to 0 then all that's left is reported = measured

[10_SS]

I am 100% sure that HPT reported PW and actual do not match regardless of time since flash, IVT, etc. There's no way ID1000's idle at 0.8 msec, which is what mine always shows. At least on an E40..

I think my min pulsewidth was 0.8 or 0.7 from whipple and that's what it always showed at idle... until I lowered the min pulsewidth to 0.5, and it would idle around 0.6... this is on my E38.


Dead Nuts at 0.38ms
LowPulse.PNG

Dead nuts at 0.09ms..
LowPulse 2.PNG

[Bluecat]

ok... I think it's solved... I put all fuel injector settings to either 0 or 1... reflashed, settings on the simulator were setup like this for consistency.. 1021rpm, 46mpa MAP, 223f coolant, 99f IAT. then:
1) instantly the HPTuners injector pulse and scope pulse were much closer together then earlier tests, however at first the scope was showing longer pulse as expected. HPT = 5.11ms vs scope of 5.45ms, IVT was ~235f and increasing...
2) Once IVT reached max temp (333.1F) then the scope injector pulse finally matched the HPTuners Injector pulse... this time was ~8min. 5.12ms for HPT, and 5.13ms on scope, with IVT at 333.1f,
3) IF engine RPM is stopped, or KEY is turned OFF for just a min, IVT decreases back to coolant temp within a few minutes, however if restarted, pulse width still match, even though IVT iis cold (near coolant temp of ~225f) it continues climbing back to ~333f. Scope pulse does not change this time. It stays "lean" and matches the HPTuners PW.
4) IF complete battery power is removed, OR it is FLASHED, then the scope Injector PW resets and the process starts over (the process = scope actual PW is higher than HPTuners reported PW until the IVT gets high for the first time, even when coolant is hot and engine is started hot).

So, someone also said they go WOT once or twice then it seems to be fixed right after flashing, I think that's because it heats up the intake valve much faster than idling/low load.


Realtime video of this event...
at 4:57 pulse are equal, RPM stopped/key off. IVT allowed to cool for ~3min.
at 7:46 started back up, first at 600rpm then back to normal 1025rpm. Pulse match perfectly. If I power down batt or reflash, then this pattern resets.
https://youtu.be/H317c68o1g8

Awesome. Thanks for taking the time to do that. It's good to see verification off what we knew, that after a reflash the actual injector PW is larger than what it should be. The big thing here is that you have gotten us some specifics. In your test it was adding a touch over .3 ms to the total physical pulse width and it took 8 minutes to go away. Both of those fall perfectly in line with what I had imagined from what I see.

But it dosen't do much for solving the problem. We still don't know what variable it runs off of. Looks like IVT isn't the axis it uses since you said after key off and cool down period that allowed the IVT to esimate back to a cooler temp, the additional PW modifier did not come back. So its still a unknown timer, another estimated temp value, or combo of all of the above. Plus even if we knew the values that cause it, ever getting someone to dig in and add the table to the editor would be an act of god. Which sucks, because with larger injectors .3 ms is enough to add a large percent of fuel at idle and decel.

[Bluecat]

And if your still looking to tinker. Do a few tests at different ect and iat combos to see what happens. When you flash one and its still cold it dosen't seem to add any fuel. But ive always wondered if that was because the cold engine eating it just masked the effects of the added pw. So basically set the ECT and IAT to 30f and see how much of a PW it adds after a reflash. And log every estimated temp value the scanner will let you populate, lol.

I remember after the "High driveabilty enrichment" switch showed up in the editor. I was all excited that it was the cause and they had finally gave us the ability to fix it. Once I tried it and seen that it had no bearing on the problem, it was like you "got cancer, your cured, nope its back..." lol. I've love to have a glimmer of hope with this problem again.

If we can map out that the ECT at first key on is the driving factor, wether because of direct lookup of startup temp or because that causes estimated temps to start off in a certain place... Ill start keeping a spare sensor in the dyno room to plug up and read room temp anytime I flash a car. lol

[10_SS]

I think GM was thinking: "well if we flash and restart when hot, then any learned temps are erased, and since the Intake Valve should be at least coolant temp, then we will make it coolant temp and worse case add fuel to avoid running lean.. then we will calculate IVT temp from scratch... and until it's fully warm, we will add fuel, and fade the extra out as IVT heats up... And since the ECU has constant power, we will know what is going on from here forward.. even with table X that we will hide..."

So, this reminds me of the "E-cell burnout" that early GM fuel injection had... try to run a bit rich on a new car, during break in, then when the cell went dead, normal fueling took over. Who really knows but this is close enough.. plus we know it's not something to do with the Injector settings, since they are all constant, so really now that we cant make it go away, can just accept it. Usually I keep trying to fix something until I know there's nothing I can do, then move on. This provides me with "move on" criteria.

Coolant temp and IVT follow each other exactly, and fast (as fast as the ECT channel responds... which is much slower than the other sensors) until the engine starts, then the calculations for IVT take over, but yes you could just wire in a relay, switched by an Arduino to read room temp for 1-2 seconds if the engine was started in the last few minutes... if that's what you want to do... but I would think making IVT read 300F (so you would need 300F coolant temp) would be ideal to get the IVT a head start... but then again... it might not start very well being 100F hotter than reality.. but you could tweak the 200-350F coolant tables to make it all the same..

[10_SS]

Here's one just showing at 190F coolant, the effect of IAT on Injector pulse.. the HPTuners reported pulse appears to move in relation to IAT.. but above ~170F IAT, Injector pulse starts to decrease.. Is there a fueling table based on IAT? I didnt see one...

IAT vs Pulsewidth 170F Leans Out.hpl

[10_SS]

Here's one started and held at 0F for Coolant and IAT. Some strange thigns happen with IVT and Injector Tip Temp... they peg around 926F, IVT comes down to normal and maxes at ~138F, but Injector Tip Temp stays at 926F.. Pulsewidth does not change over time.

0f startup, HIGH IVT temps.hpl

[10_SS]

At 72F coolant temp... Scope Injector Pulse did not change, however either did Inj. Tip Temp... it stayed at 72.1. On the last test at 0F coolant, Inj. Tip pegged at 926F, but it also stayed there and Scope Pulse width did not change.

151F coolant temps... Injector Scope PW is not changing and Inj Tip and IVT started at 151F... ITTis down to 112.7F and IVT at 281F... no change.

162F shows just a hint of increased scope PW which tapers off pretty quick... and if I instantly go to 195F coolant temps after it tapers off to normal, then PW doesn't increase... it stays true to what HPTuners reports.

178F does seem to startoff with increased Scope Inj. Pulse Width.. but not as much increase as hotter temps. Strange. 151F doesnt show any increase.

~195F coolant temps... shows the typical injector pulse offsets that go away as IVT's taper off over 303F.. (when started from ~195F).

~232F coolant temps.. similar times as 195F, however 340F IVT temps and 149F Inj Tip Temps when Scope Inj. Pulse stabilizes and equals HPTuners.

~268F coolant temps.. similar to the "HOT" temps (195-232F) except scope PW didnt taper off and match HPTuners until IVT = 359.15 and is now completely steady... while ITT keeps falling slowly around 152.6, now 149.4 after ~30s... 20s later 149.2, etc.

So, if you flash hot, or Batt disconnect hot, then immediately restart, you will see rich conditions right away.. if you let the engine cool down to ~151F coolant temps then start, you shouldn't see it right away, as coolant temp is low, and the IVT starts heating up and drives down the hidden PW adder... IVT and coolant temp increase pretty fast, so the effect may be minimal.

So there you have it... something is happening that starts at ~151F and below 162F coolant temp that is creating the increased scope PulseWidth after flash or batt disconnect and continues to increase scope PW up to at least 268F coolant temps. Maybe with that description HPTuners can find something? I did this with the old LT1 Tunercats... described what I was seeing with Baro Reset... and they found a new parameter to add..

[Bluecat]

I don't have time to look at the logs this morning. Thanks for posting them though. I'll make comments based off your recap.

Yes, IAT and ECT affect the air density calc, which in turn directly effects the fuel calc. There is no table, as its strait math to determine air density from air temp via gm's take on the ideal gas law cooked into the GMVE scheme. What you can change is estimated manifold air temp the ecm uses for that calculation. Which is done though the bias table, but the end result will always be somewhere between IAT and ECT. Regardless, for the test it doesn't matter that reported pw in the scanner changes, so long as it matches your reading on the scope. I know you tried to "zero out" all the modifiers to make it simpler and easier to look at, but that is one you can't eliminate. Since we are only interested in the fact there is another post fuel calc component offset being added we can't see.

Not sure what is going on with the Inj Tip Temp, that some pretty crazy erroneous data you go there. Didn't look like it actually was effecting much though as far as the phantom modifier. I keep inj tip temp in my normal GenIV config. I've never noticed that, but I don't look at that PID much either. I'll see if I have ever seen that happen around those temps. Sounds like an OS bug to me.

Again thanks for verifying what I had seen. Good to know it doesn't happen when the ECT is below 150F after a reflash. I'll keep a spare sensor to plug in and read room temp for the first key on after a reflash on the next car that goes so fat it won't idle after every reflash.

Thanks again for all your foot work! If you need anything just let me know. Now for someone to take the initiative to champion this task and get someone to find and add the offender to the editor, which in my opinion will be the hardest part.

[MikeOD]

These are pretty good... but I might will prob stick with the Sound card for now... That would be sweet to have lower reverse lockout numbers... I could prob ship this spare ECU to you when I'm done playing around... if it still works that is.

http://www.bitscope.com/product/BS10/ $245 or the micro for $145.

Let me know, if you want to go that route we can...or if you send me your original file (not the enhanced OS), I can write it into my car (also a 2010 SS), read it with EFI, make the change, read it back with HPT and send it to you...should just require some credits...if you ship me the computer with the non-enhanced OS already in it, then it'll only cost the EFI credits.

[MikeOD]

I remember after the "High driveabilty enrichment" switch showed up in the editor. I was all excited that it was the cause and they had finally gave us the ability to fix it. Once I tried it and seen that it had no bearing on the problem, it was like you "got cancer, your cured, nope its back..." lol. I've love to have a glimmer of hope with this problem again.

I only had an EFILive demo at the time, and I found that setting, so I asked HPTuners to add it...and it didn't fix anything...turns out the High DI stuff does actually add to the commanded EQ ratio, it's not an offset table.

This is now very clearly an offset table that we're missing...it appears that it follows a temp model similar to the IVT temp model at least after a reflash, but not 100% of the time.

[schpenxel]

I think my min pulsewidth was 0.8 or 0.7 from whipple and that's what it always showed at idle... until I lowered the min pulsewidth to 0.5, and it would idle around 0.6... this is on my E38.


Dead Nuts at 0.38ms


Dead nuts at 0.09ms..

I have my min at 0.125 msec, so I should be good there. I didn't want in interfering, so I just set it really low for the time being.

Here's one just showing at 190F coolant, the effect of IAT on Injector pulse.. the HPTuners reported pulse appears to move in relation to IAT.. but above ~170F IAT, Injector pulse starts to decrease.. Is there a fueling table based on IAT? I didnt see one...

IAT vs Pulsewidth 170F Leans Out.hpl

Speed density calcs are based on IAT, and there's also an injector flow rate vs. IAT multiplier table, though it is usually all 1's, so it wouldn't really do anything in that case

[schpenxel]

Oh, and best thread ever

[10_SS]

OK... so I decided to play with the stock build in "Supercharger fitted" switch... instead of using the OS Patch "Manifold Vacuum Patch" to make the Injector Flow rate table reference boost.

I'm finding switching the Supercharger switch to "FITTED" appears to do the same thing as the "Manifold Patch", however I'm having better results using my bench simulator... meaning the injectors are not cutting out at high MAP readings (180kpa+), or higher than 1200rpms like I was having before. With "Supercharger Fitted" enabled, I can go all the way to 255kpa MAP and ~8000rpm and injector PW still shows pulses... so now wondering if I should just switch that on in the real car tune... seems to be working fine even though I dont have TPS or other sensors... now worried the "Manifold Vacuum Patch" will actually carry these problems over, or manifest in some other way... Any guess as to which to use?

[seven ends]

OK... so I decided to play with the stock build in "Supercharger fitted" switch... instead of using the OS Patch "Manifold Vacuum Patch" to make the Injector Flow rate table reference boost.

I'm finding switching the Supercharger switch to "FITTED" appears to do the same thing as the "Manifold Patch", however I'm having better results using my bench simulator... meaning the injectors are not cutting out at high MAP readings (180kpa+), or higher than 1200rpms like I was having before. With "Supercharger Fitted" enabled, I can go all the way to 255kpa MAP and ~8000rpm and injector PW still shows pulses... so now wondering if I should just switch that on in the real car tune... seems to be working fine even though I dont have TPS or other sensors... now worried the "Manifold Vacuum Patch" will actually carry these problems over, or manifest in some other way... Any guess as to which to use?

Thanks for the thread. Subscribed to learn more on the Supercharger tab. I recently found in another thread where it was suggested to change boost settings even though it was set to "Not Fitted". I was under the impression until recently that all the settings on this tab were not applicable if "Not Fitted" was selected, so now wondering about above and more?????

[10_SS]

well for one, the Intercooler settings are all out of range of ever accidentally coming on, that makes me think they could work if the settings are brought into usable range... just have to poke every unlabeled pins until something is found... if anything.

Boost Control would be neat to play with... any idea what pins these would be on, on ZL1 or CTS-V? Somewhere to start anyway

[cc-rider]

Any update here 10_SS? Did you ever determine if the "supercharger enabled" switch and HPT manifold vacuum patch interfered with each other in any way or which was better?