Learning to tune my car for Autocross and NHA HillClimbs

[gmtech16450yz]

Am I missing something here, why would you leave me hanging? I sure hope it wasn't anything I said, if so, I'm deeply sorry because I sure didn't mean it like you must have taken it. From what I have gathered you are one of the most knowledge people on this forum, even I figured that out just being on this forum for a few months. Anyways, I hope you keep at least a silent interest my thread because there are a few of us that like this kind of racing and yours and other senior member's input would be deeply appreciated. If you want to give any input you may always PM or Email me if you want - it would be welcomed. Just think about it - please.

Sorry, from your post it sounded like you were happy with the help you were getting from Bill so I didn't want to interfere or step on anyone's toes. That's all. I've given my opinion and thoughts here about 90 times too many anyway. I just felt like my staying in here to just keep saying the same things would be counterproductive. I'll keep an eye on your progress and of course if you need help I always try to be available. I meant good luck seriously, not at all in a smart ass way. That's what the exclamation mark was for!

[TBSteck]

I'm going to find some time today to flash it back to stock. I have some questions, which in turn are concerns of mine, Having a catless exhaust now is there any concerns with a stock tune of the engine going nuts trying to make adjustments when it see the cat isn't functioning very efficiently (especially since it isn't there anymore)? Everything is GXP stock except for the DDM intercooler - which I don't think will have any effect in the tune and the only other performance "go fast" part is the lighten flywheel which again shouldn't effect the tune except it revs faster.

Questions I would like answered for my confidence, since it is a the bottom right now:
1) Will the catless exhaust hurt the engine with a stock tune if I drive it a few miles (10 - 20 or so)
2) Show I make any "tuning" adjustments if I'm going to drive the car 500+ miles to break in the engine? (Because it is catless.)
3) As I have shown from the above logs - if you don't have the right stuff being logged and logged correctly then the log can be misinterpreted and off they go ...
I have included by three files from my desktop workstation, the two files that start with VCM came from this this folder: Documents\HP Tuners\Settings; the other file came from this folder: Documents\HP Tuners\VCM Scanner\Configs and they all three have the 5/28 date as the last modified date.

Thanks guys, let me know what you think.

Should I have any concerns of being catless with a bone stock tune? If so, what adjustment(s) should I make before I drive it?

[cobaltssoverbooster]

for now just disable the catalytic converter codes. it will adjust fuel on its own while you figure out whats going on.

[TBSteck]

for now just disable the catalytic converter codes. it will adjust fuel on its own while you figure out whats going on.

Thanks ... will do. I need to go to a client today about 10 miles away, I'll log it there and back. Post late afternoon or evening.

[TBSteck]

Here is a short log of the stock tune - remember the car has no cats on it now. I didn't change anything on this stock tune so I know I will get an check engine light soon but I know why when it appears. I'm not sure what is good or what is bad and most importantly what I should check. Boy I wish I have a log before any of this started to compare against but I don't. I see the fuel pressure is below a 1000 sometimes and then I see it over 2300 at others. I also noticed the boost jumped pretty high a couple of times for a stock engine. I guess it is time to take a look around and see if someone didn't put the engine together correctly or I maybe have a bad part or two. Something seems odd to me and I don't know what I'm looking at, I can imagine what you experts are saying ... or maybe I don't. Tell me what you think I should check. The car is sitting until I figure it out.

Anyway, any expert opinion will be appreciated and even if it has already been said PLEASE say it again - no offense will be taken. Now that my logs are correct (thanks gmtech for you help) I feel better of what I'm showing you. I'm giving you my TWO .cfg files so we all are looking at the same screen. Please be specific as the time of the log so I can start to understand what doesn't look correct. I want to learn and OTJ training is the best even it is with your own new engine!

[gmtech16450yz]

Here is a short log of the stock tune - remember the car has no cats on it now. I didn't change anything on this stock tune so I know I will get an check engine light soon but I know why when it appears. I'm not sure what is good or what is bad and most importantly what I should check. Boy I wish I have a log before any of this started to compare against but I don't. I see the fuel pressure is below a 1000 sometimes and then I see it over 2300 at others. I also noticed the boost jumped pretty high a couple of times for a stock engine. I guess it is time to take a look around and see if someone didn't put the engine together correctly or I maybe have a bad part or two. Something seems odd to me and I don't know what I'm looking at, I can imagine what you experts are saying ... or maybe I don't. Tell me what you think I should check. The car is sitting until I figure it out.

Anyway, any expert opinion will be appreciated and even if it has already been said PLEASE say it again - no offense will be taken. Now that my logs are correct (thanks gmtech for you help) I feel better of what I'm showing you. I'm giving you my TWO .cfg files so we all are looking at the same screen. Please be specific as the time of the log so I can start to understand what doesn't look correct. I want to learn and OTJ training is the best even it is with your own new engine!

OK Tyler I just made another YouTube walk-through video using your files you just posted here. It will be coming to a computer near you shortly! lol. It's uploading right now so it should be on my YouTube page in a few minutes.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC33...OZjhuEAGeac_fQ

I took literally a couple seconds look at that log. So far it looks like the best tune I've seen in your car so far!!! I'll look closer when I get a chance. Good job on the config thing, you've got it figured out obviously. Hopefully the walk-through video I just made will help show others how easy it can be to use other's setups completely without dealing with ANY missing PID's or crap like that. Good Job! Now you can take baby steps YOURSELF and tweak that tune the way YOU want it. Congratulations! This is the most positive thing I've seen so far in your whole engine experience story.

It's up, here's the video itself...

https://youtu.be/pHnTNYay-54

[TBSteck]

Well it is the stock tune (except my car is catless now) that was taken from my car when it was bone stock. GM should know what they are doing ... they just won't give you a race tune!

After you study it a little, do you think everything was put back together correctly? Been some questions/statement about the wastegate but I think they were going by the bad logs I did after 2nd engine got back in, now at least the boost is showing the correct values. And the biggest question is can I break in the engine with this tune with one WOT run every 100 miles WITHOUT a fear of hurting the engine because of the state of the engine?

Probably these questions will be answered when you (or anyone else) gets a chance to look at it in more detail. I'll do a longer or a little harder run (still not any WOT) if that is needed or would help in the analysis of my engine. Just let me know. What we don't do for racing!!

[cobaltssoverbooster]

still not tracking desired cam position. tuning is all about receiving what you command, it should be something that is at least on your table primary list.

Mechanical parts seem to be all working as designed. Your not technically supposed to be over 8psi boost on a break-in period that should be around 900-1500 miles as requested by most machine shops. (3-5 tanks of gas) As for blowing, the answers is always unknown but if it was assembled correctly this thune shouldn't throw parts into the pan as long as you don't boost for medium-long periods of time. (Basically don't pull multiple gears and/or gears over 1st and 2nd as the duration and loading of the crank can effect the breaking seating process).
this looks much better.
Throttle body command is being followed by the actual position much better.
the maf and ve lb/min offset is more reasonable now. the other files there was just way to big of a spread.
max psi you pulled was about 18psi. I did notice however that pe did not initiate on that short pull. this would be something that would get corrected in the PE Enrichment table. gm likes to run them very lean and wait until 100% load before they really start doing anything. (time: 3.56.078)
Fuel Trim Average is close.

so far that's all I got, it looks like the gm tune is running how they all mostly run. fairly accurate until you ask for some express action on the go pedal and then the offsets and shenanigans start. very common for a GM tune to run negative or single digit positive ignition values at idle when its really programmed for like 25, and it will throw boost spikes up top when you let off. PE is delayed in a gm tune until you hit 100% load and that's just not safe for a ton of wot driving like you would racing but for your break in period you will be ok since your not supposed to be there anyways. Once you get into tuning the file we can help you correct all of the GM errors.

nice video john, it clears up your description very well.

[gmtech16450yz]

Well it is the stock tune (except my car is catless now) that was taken from my car when it was bone stock. GM should know what they are doing ... they just won't give you a race tune!

After you study it a little, do you think everything was put back together correctly? Been some questions/statement about the wastegate but I think they were going by the bad logs I did after 2nd engine got back in, now at least the boost is showing the correct values. And the biggest question is can I break in the engine with this tune with one WOT run every 100 miles WITHOUT a fear of hurting the engine because of the state of the engine?

Probably these questions will be answered when you (or anyone else) gets a chance to look at it in more detail. I'll do a longer or a little harder run (still not any WOT) if that is needed or would help in the analysis of my engine. Just let me know. What we don't do for racing!!

Ok first of all... Your engine is "broken in" already. Nothing you do in the next 500 miles is going to make any difference. Just drive it. Don't beat the living chit out of it, but just drive it and drive it hard.

On the tune... the log looks safe enough right now, the first thing I would do is to richen up the PE. Use Bill's PE table settings as a compare file and copy them over to yours. The rest of it isn't perfect by any means, but it's driveable. Learn how to do the MAF calibration and do that next. Learn about disconnecting the purge while tuning, etc, etc, etc. There's a LOT to learn, but you're back to a solid base tune to work slowly from. Don't worry about power, that will come LATER. Don't be antsy, the correct way to get a "race" tune is slowly and methodically.

[gmtech16450yz]

still not tracking desired cam position. tuning is all about receiving what you command, it should be something that is at least on your table primary list.

Mechanical parts seem to be all working as designed. Your not technically supposed to be over 8psi boost on a break-in period that should be around 900-1500 miles as requested by most machine shops. (3-5 tanks of gas) As for blowing, the answers is always unknown but if it was assembled correctly this thune shouldn't throw parts into the pan as long as you don't boost for medium-long periods of time. (Basically don't pull multiple gears and/or gears over 1st and 2nd as the duration and loading of the crank can effect the breaking seating process).
this looks much better.
Throttle body command is being followed by the actual position much better.
the maf and ve lb/min offset is more reasonable now. the other files there was just way to big of a spread.
max psi you pulled was about 18psi. I did notice however that pe did not initiate on that short pull. this would be something that would get corrected in the PE Enrichment table. gm likes to run them very lean and wait until 100% load before they really start doing anything. (time: 3.56.078)
Fuel Trim Average is close.

so far that's all I got, it looks like the gm tune is running how they all mostly run. fairly accurate until you ask for some express action on the go pedal and then the offsets and shenanigans start. very common for a GM tune to run negative or single digit positive ignition values at idle when its really programmed for like 25, and it will throw boost spikes up top when you let off. PE is delayed in a gm tune until you hit 100% load and that's just not safe for a ton of wot driving like you would racing but for your break in period you will be ok since your not supposed to be there anyways. Once you get into tuning the file we can help you correct all of the GM errors.

nice video john, it clears up your description very well.

Hahahahaha we must have been typing at the same time and said almost the same things! Absolutely he needs to richen PE up, like you said it's always a little late and a little lean. Everything else you said is right on of course, except I don't totally agree with the engine break in stuff. Rings can be seated in the first few MINUTES of engine running, but certainly they're either seated or they're never gonna seat after a few hours of run time. I've been involved with machine shops for decades, "Most" machine shop guys are clueless or they just repeat what they've heard from others, which is usually wrong. Tyler's engine isn't "new" anyway, it's basically just a piston and ring job. A few hard loads at a reasonably low rpm will be enough to get the rings seated. This engine has already seen over 23psi boost, those rings aren't going to change directions either way at this point. He's perfectly fine to drive it hard. Exactly like you said though, avoid long, high rpm pulls through multiple gears.

[TBSteck]

Just talked to the engine builder and he said it did not touch the wastegate so it is still at factory settings.

So do you think the engine is safe to use to break it in? I need another 400+ miles to get it to 500. I will still take it easy.

[gmtech16450yz]

Just talked to the engine builder and he said it did not touch the wastegate so it is still at factory settings.

So do you think the engine is safe to use to break it in? I need another 400+ miles to get it to 500. I will still take it easy.

Tyler are you just skimming over what we all post? It seems like you're not reading what we're saying. Re-read the last 3 posts and it will answer this question. 3 times.

[TBSteck]

OK, I'm going to drive it today to a client that is 35+ miles away and mostly freeway driving ... I will vary my speed, etc. Then I have a meeting up there and some other stuff to do, I could see a 80+ miles today alone. Here goes.

[gmtech16450yz]

OK, I'm going to drive it today to a client that is 35+ miles away and mostly freeway driving ... I will vary my speed, etc. Then I have a meeting up there and some other stuff to do, I could see a 80+ miles today alone. Here goes.

Logging long drives are what you need to dial in the MAF. Try to log as much of that 80 miles as you can. You can log the whole 35 mile drive if you want, or log it half way, save that log and keep logging the rest of the way. What you need to do now is gather data. Yes, vary your freeway speeds and also load it up hard around 2-3k rpm a few times, just for a few seconds. The other thing to remember on LNF's is you're not doing it any favors to be gentle on the pedal. If you're driving it hard or trying to load it, BURY THAT PEDAL. That way you'll be sure it's in PE. Being "nice" by only going half throttle is BAD for an LNF when the PE/TPS Pedal/Throttle settings aren't set up yet.

[cobaltssoverbooster]

True on the breakin. Its just a re piston and ring and maybe bearing refresh at most. I extend what I do on my own motors cause it's the general blanket statement from just about every shop and Im favoring "playing the safe side" for the forum.

[TBSteck]

First, when you say "Tyler" do you mean me? My first name is Tim. I was ignoring stuff addressed to "Tyler" because I thought you were talking to someone else, sorry. And we are posting over each other, I was posting as you were and I was missing some of your info. MY bad --- again.

OK, I will drive it a little hard and do a few WOT for a little bit. Yea, I know how to bury the pedal.

What my thought was, as soon as we all agree that there is nothing mechanical wrong with my car (the main reason I put in the stock tune) and it seems no one is seeing anything weird in the stock tune so maybe my car/engine is mechanically sound, was to put back in Bill's race tune and start there. But you seem to have some question/concerns with starting with Bill's base tune and start making adjustments to the MAF, etc., is the correct? I was hoping to "skip" a few of the steps (not MAF) by getting a well used race tune, especially when I have a big race over the July 4th weekend. It's a 2 minute hillclimb race with a lot of WOT for ~5-10 seconds at a time - that a lifetime compared to autocross. I also plan to put in 100 octane for that race only then back to 92.

Today I will let it stock and I don't have time to get it ready for MAF tuning before I leave. I have to do some work today ...

[JimmyS]

Get it tuned well with the 92 octane. When you put in the 100 octane, you'll want to work on the tune again as the benefit of the 100 octane will be negligible unless you tune for it. Do you have E85 where you live?

[gmtech16450yz]

First, when you say "Tyler" do you mean me? My first name is Tim. I was ignoring stuff addressed to "Tyler" because I thought you were talking to someone else, sorry. And we are posting over each other, I was posting as you were and I was missing some of your info. MY bad --- again.

OK, I will drive it a little hard and do a few WOT for a little bit. Yea, I know how to bury the pedal.

What my thought was, as soon as we all agree that there is nothing mechanical wrong with my car (the main reason I put in the stock tune) and it seems no one is seeing anything weird in the stock tune so maybe my car/engine is mechanically sound, was to put back in Bill's race tune and start there. But you seem to have some question/concerns with starting with Bill's base tune and start making adjustments to the MAF, etc., is the correct? I was hoping to "skip" a few of the steps (not MAF) by getting a well used race tune, especially when I have a big race over the July 4th weekend. It's a 2 minute hillclimb race with a lot of WOT for ~5-10 seconds at a time - that a lifetime compared to autocross. I also plan to put in 100 octane for that race only then back to 92.

Today I will let it stock and I don't have time to get it ready for MAF tuning before I leave. I have to do some work today ...

Hahahahahaha then why the hell am I calling you Tyler? Are you SURE your name isn't Tyler? Maybe somebody changed it when you weren't looking? Sorry, for some reason I thought your name was Tyler. I try to use personal names when talking to people but it would help if I had the correct names! So yeah, anything I wrote to Tyler was for you. lol.

I personally would rather you ran the stock tune with a few little tweaks than to use Bill's entire tune. Your logs weren't good with it before, they're not going to miraculously be better now. You'll be better off racing it with the stock tune, but just a little richer and maybe a tad more boost. You know the drill, To finish first, you must first finish. Baby steps from a safe base tune is the best way to approach your situation in my opinion. You're gonna want to make sure it's rich enough and ign timing is advanced enough to not get egt's too high during those hard, long runs in the race. On 100 octane I'd be shooting for somewhere around 20 degrees ign timing at WOT above 4 or 5k rpm. E47 will take up to 26 degrees, but I wouldn't do anywhere near that in a race situation. You don't want it too low though because that also causes high egt's and isn't very efficient for the engine. Just make sure it's not in the single digits at WOT when you're on 100 octane.

Sorry about the name thing! Oh and as far as getting some work done, after you've done the same job for 30+ years it gets easy to do this AND get your work done! I've been at work for less than 4 hours and I've already done 9 hours worth of work! Paying attention to those emails saying somebody has posted in this thread does get a little distracting though!

[cobaltssoverbooster]

The lnf doesn't have very good clarity. What I mean by that is the tables don't have long axis like an lsa or lsx so you cant correct for data in as many cells as some other motors.
That means you tune it to your driving style. Don't go taking bills fIle because it is a very specific driving style that you might not have which causes problems.
As mentioned above, stick to the file you have and make changes that suite your style.

[gmtech16450yz]

The lnf doesn't have very good clarity. What I mean by that is the tables don't have long axis like an lsa or lsx so you cant correct for data in as many cells as some other motors.
That means you tune it to your driving style. Don't go taking bills fIle because it is a very specific driving style that you might not have which causes problems.
As mentioned above, stick to the file you have and make changes that suite your style.

I understand and agree with the "clarity" point on the LNF. My LSA file has 928 main file parameters of which I've modified 306 of though. That's a lot of "clarity"! My LNF file had 227 main file parameters of which I modified 85 of! The E69 was difficult because a lot of it is so different from what everyone was used to, but the Gen 4 LS engines aren't exactly a walk in the park either. Sure, you can get one running good easier and faster than an LNF, but if you want it to run PERFECTLY, you're gonna have to master things like Transient Fueling or the 50 different idle control tables. Idle alone gives guys fits. Sure there's a "desired idle" table, but you can put whatever you want in it and it's not going to idle there unless you give it the right airflow AND spark. Too much or too little of one or the other and everything goes whacky. I can get max power out of an LS engine in a couple of tune revisions. But I'm at tune number 871 since putting the LSA in and I'm still perfecting things like cold starts on full E85 or having the wideband readings follow commanded EXACTLY, and at every different driving condition. It's like anything else, it's easy to get to 90% on anything, it's that last 10% that takes ten times as long!

The E69 was definitely ahead of it's time, that's for sure. Aren't there like 6000 tables in that computer? I don't know but I'll tell you another thing, Direct Injection is SOOOOOOO much easier to control fueling. Spraying fuel onto an intake valve is pretty crude compared to the precise control the Direct Injection gives. And having Closed Loop fuel control even at WOT is also amazing. That one factor alone has probably saved hundreds of LNF's from blowing up. You get WOT fueling wrong in an LS engine and there's nothing the computer can really do to save you. Both have their strong and weak points obviously.